The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Under and over fermentation

Kogaku's picture
Kogaku

Under and over fermentation

What might be the classic signs of under and over proofing both in the dough prior to baking and in the bread after baking? If there are some”classic” visual or textural signs to watch for it would be nice for new home bakers to know until experience takes over.  

Thanks in advance,

kogaku 

David R's picture
David R

I think one reason this topic gets slow responses is that verbal descriptions of the classic problems are easy to misinterpret. People end up thinking they've got faulty bread when in fact it's fine.

Maybe it would be possible to collect pictures here, of some examples of obvious over- and under-fermentation.

Another difficulty might be that the very worst bread problems tend to happen to clueless people like me, who might make two or three big mistakes at the same time, making it harder to focus on just one of them in the picture. ?

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

kogaku,  in final proofing, I don't know of much in the way of foolproof signs before you bake, but after you bake, you can get some indication by the loaf.  If it comes out smaller than it went it, that is a pretty sure sign of overproofing of the final proof.  If you see burst sides, or even bursting at the scores, but not much increase in size, that can be a sign of underproofing during final proof.  Ideally, it goes into the oven at about 85% of the maximum size it can attain, and grows that 15% increase in volume during the first part of the bake, then the dough solidifies and holds that volume as it cooks.  Of course, how to tell what 85% of the maximum size is extremely hard to tell in advance, especially since most proofing baskets are not straight sided, making it extremely hard to judge.  Others suggest that if you bake a particular recipe with a particular flour often enough, you will be able to tell by the feel and look of the dough when it is proofed to the right amount. 

 While the finger poke test has not been of much help to me , since I bake 100% whole wheat , a long time ago I made several attempts at baking a BF loaf in a baking pan. Over time, I did get a bit of a feel for how that dough felt when being poked.    One time, I thought I proofed it enough, and put a finger in it and I thought it made a sound like -  whoosh -  and it deflated when in the oven , so I got to now what overproofed felt like, for that particular recipe. No use to me know, but just to show that it can be of value to some.  

Steve Petermann's picture
Steve Petermann

I've also been thinking about this. Since I like to experiment with the formulas, it's difficult to know the sweet spot. So, today I thought I'd try something with my current dough.  I'll be cutting a small piece off of the dough during the final proof at certain intervals and doing something like a windowpane test. Perhaps I'll be able to get a sense of what the dough structure is doing. This would be something like the finger poke test but maybe more informative. Since I'll be doing the final proof in a banneton, I can cut a piece off what will be the bottom of the loaf and not mess it up.  Has anyone tried this as well?

OldLoaf's picture
OldLoaf

A general pictoral guide after the bake can be found here: https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/11/troubleshoot-bad-bread-messed-up-loaf.html 

As others have said, the proof itself is somewhat tricky.  For me its usually never the same twice. If you stick with the same recipe for a while, make a few mistakes, then get some great loaves, you will get a feel for your environment and what the dough likes to do.  Take notes as you go along so you can go back to the day you made the perfect loaf and see what you did to get there.

Kogaku's picture
Kogaku

Thanks everybody for the thoughtful feedback on a subject that is extremely difficult to quantify. Your collective input is quite valuable. I perceive that diligence, patience and close observation over time are key ingredients for success. Onward!

kogaku 

Steve Petermann's picture
Steve Petermann

I mentioned I was going to do a test on my current bake. So here's the specs.  I did a bulk ferment at 40 degF for 20 hrs. Then I let it warm up on the counter for an hour.  Did a gentle four corner stretch and fold to shape a batard.  Put in a floured banneton and proofed at 79 degF.  Every 30 minutes I scissored off a piece and did a windowpane test. I didn't see much change until right at 3 hours. Then it started to show signs of tearing when I did the test. So, I baked it then. I'm thinking it might have been slightly over-proofed.  I got a pretty good oven spring and a decent crumb.  Also at the same time, I did a punch test and it didn't seem to tell me anything. Could be the dough was too cool for that to work. Just one test, but I think I'll try some more and see if it could really be helpful.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Steve,  the few times I have found the finger poke test to work, the dough was regular bread flour and at room temp.  When the loaf is retarded, it definitely tightens up, and i dough the poke test would be of much help.