The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Advice on scoring not catching

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

Advice on scoring not catching

Hi everyone, I've been having trouble with my scoring for a little while. The loaf rises fine, but the scoring doesn't catch and create and ear on my batards, and on my boules it stays a bit flat too. Its the same for every recipe.  Does anyone have any ideas why it might be happening? 

The recipe I used this time was: 

780g white

147g spelt

50g rye

18g salt

75% hydration

1 hour autolyse, mix, 3 sets of NESW stretch and folds, bulk fermentation to about 3 1/2 hours (internal dough temp of 80f), preshape, shape, and then 20 hours in the fridge at 37f. 

 

Thanks for your help! :)

 

 

Lillkatzino's picture
Lillkatzino

Hey! First of all, that crumb shot looks absolutely amazing, whoa.

I´m struggling with the same thing - what has helped me improve at least a little is proofing for a little shorter amount of time and also really working on my technique when it comes to shaping. 

I´m still unsure which scoring pattern is the best for boules though - I don´t have a proofing basket for batards and I´m not satisfied with my bloom yet.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

A bit less proofing and tighter shaping can help give a more dramatic bloom, but given the loaf profile and crumb on that first one (nice), it looks like you might just be a bit too timid and not scoring deeply enough.  Esp. since you are working with cold dough at a reasonable hydration, they should be pretty nice to score.  

Confident cuts...are you using a lame?  Is the blade pretty fresh/sharp?

Also be sure to have good steam...

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

Thanks everyone. That's really kind and helpful. I think my shaping technique probably needs some work - there often isn't that sense of scoring through a gluten sheaf on the outside. Do you have any advice on shaping? I'll try proofing a bit less and going deeper too. 

I bake in a dutch oven, score with a lame (and change the blade every 5 bakes or so) and mist before the lid goes on. 

David R's picture
David R

I'm far from an expert, but (A) I think that's already impressive and (B) I wonder if the blade you're using is a razor or not. Despite good sharpening, your knife is not as sharp as a razor. Don't believe me? Shave with it, and report back. ?

I just wonder if all that's needed is a cleaner cut. (Speaking of clean cuts, rinse your lame whenever necessary.)

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

haha! I'll hold off shaving with a knife for now... ;) I'm using a lame with a double edge razor in it. I'll make sure its properly clean between scores. I was thinking about getting one of the lames labelled as more on the professional end, but I'm not sure what difference that's like to make to a home baker? 

David R's picture
David R

As long as the blade is sharp and you're comfortable using it, it's as good as it gets. The fancy label ones I've seen were not better in any useful way.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Sam, David Snyder made a scoring tutorial that has become a standard on the site. I think you will find useful information. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31887/scoring-bread-updated-tutorial

Dan

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

So hard to tell from the pictures. But appears ( and could easily be wrong) that you are slashing straight down into the dough. You might try more of an angle. If you think about catching the same amount of dough but at a sharper angle, this gives the structure needed for an ear when you get your spring.

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

Thanks, Edo, I think you're probably onto something. I think I'm being a bit tentative with the angle - these were baked in a dutch oven and I was anxious about burning my wrist. I'm thinking about getting a cloche which might make it easier... 

Edo Bread's picture
Edo Bread

That is one of the reasons I think using a cloche is great. It hits that hot surface and starts to set the bottom - but the sides and top are free for scoring safely. No slings or big drops etc.

There is plenty of good advice out there about shallow angled cuts - if you think abut the physics it just makes sense. But as one additional source I think this is good from Weekend Bakery:

  • If you want to create an “ear,” the knife blade should be held at a shallow angle (about 30 degrees) with the surface of the loaf, about 0.6 cm/ ¼ inch deep.

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/bread-scoring-with-confidence/

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

First of all, you're making great bread.  Shaping and scoring only a couple loaves at a time means it will take a long time for us home bakers to get good at.

Deeper is not the answer.  Hamelman states that shallower cuts result in greater bloom.  The angle of approach and only using the tip of the blade are key.  It's hard to learn from a professional, too, because they do it so quickly.  It would be instructive if a pro would film it close up in slow motion.

Here are some excellent posts on scoring by Dave Snyder.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/scoring

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10121/bread-scoring-tutorial-updated-122009

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30001/scoring-bread-made-highhydration-dough

calneto's picture
calneto

I am very skeptical about the angle of the scoring. My main point is that there are traditional scoring patterns that are symmetrical. The classical cross in a boule or even a straight cut on a batard. I understand when you are using intricate scoring patterns, such as some elaborate flowers, where the cuts are more superficial, but I tend to stick to the notion that it does not matter that much if you score straight or at an angle.

For me it makes sense that the cut must be deep enough. That can be seen easily if you lightly score figures such as wheat stalks, which barely open. You clearly cannot expect such scoring to generate an ear.

But hey, my ears have also been relatively timid. Here is the latest one:

What I think is my main problem is shaping, though I am a bit frustrated, since I just cannot figure what I am doing different than all those shaping videos I've watched.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

With a stainless blade, you don't have to change it every 5 uses.  Just wash off the blade, let it dry, and put it someplace where it won't rub against anything hard.  A Wilkinson double-edged blade should be good for at least 50-100 loaves (Walmart).

After reading through the comments so far, the best video on slashing has been pointed to by DanAyo.

But the two things that seem likely to improve your results are decreasing the hydration to 69%, and under-proofing a little.  Recognize that your crumb openness will likely suffer initially, but reading Trevor Wilson's Open Crumb Mastery will help you recover a lot of that.

A good experiment is to bake two loaves side by side, slashing one with a vertical blade and the other one with a curved razor blade tilted over 60° so that it leaves a little flap. A 1/4" deep slash will be enough.

To see what is going on in the oven, look at this video.  Another place to look is here where the old myth about steam preserving the stretchiness of the dough is debunked with data.  And the heat transfer in a home oven is dealt with here.

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

Thanks DD - that video is mesmerising! Do you just use the poke test to decide when it's proofed enough? I've had mixed results using it (especially in dough in the fridge?)

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

I have found that by the time the poke test leaves an indentation, then it is too late. Judging full proof is perhaps one of the most difficult skills to develop. It just feels right when it is ready but even then you may be early. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Super helpful links and fun video to watch, thank Doc.

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

Thanks for your help everyone! I'll have a look at Trevor Wilsons book and try underproofing it with a tighter shape and see what happens.... 

Sid's picture
Sid

For the SAME dough, one at room temperature and the other straight out of the fridge, the cold one will always score far more easily. I score my sourdough cold and bake it straight out of the fridge. Hope this works for you.

Samcowgreen's picture
Samcowgreen

I think I've made some progress - for me, in the end, it seems to have been a mixture of not developing enough gluten at the start, and then not shaping tight enough. (I've changed flour too, which seems to be much easier to work with).  Thanks for your help everyone!

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

That is a nice looking loaf.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow that is gorgeous!