Same Ciabatta video, different music. Let's just say all musicians aren't crazy about having their music in baking videos. OOps. -Mark
i think it's awesome when people post videos of how they do things because it always makes you question/try to improve the way you do things. So thanks!
I do have a Q, what's the difference between ciabatta and a baguette?
Like the trick with the board! Now why didn't I ever think of that? Great video!
The Ciabatta recipe in BBA has them shaping them into long loaves just like this Mini O.
Marc, that dough is silky, and bubbly, and I am sooooooooooo evniuos.
I just sat here pining to make it! (Done have a mixer and the "hand mixingmethod" is just too hard!
Thanks again for sharing with us!
That video was very interesting! I too have a Berkel mixer that looks just like that; is that a 12 qt? Also, can you give us more info about the proofing container?SOL
Another nice vid Mark. Nice mixer! Moves the table around some.
I have a question about dough handling. I noticed that on one loaf there were some large bubbles near the surface as you set the dough on the baking pan and that you apparently you left them untouched. They didn't burn out and get over brown which has been my concern. I sometimes lance the surface bubbles but wish I didn't have to. What's your take on this Mark? Should those rising surface pockets be left alone?
I don't know if this helps, but in the Artisan Baking (Glezer) ciabatta recipe, the recipe specifies that after "stretching out" the loaf as you set it down for it's trip into the oven, you do something I'd call a "press down", which involves pressing dimples into the dough (they talk about pushing all the way through the dough until you feel the counter on the other side). It helps a lot with any overly large bubbles that may have developed. Of course, it does reduce the overall bubbly structure, but I found the loaves handled this way still spring up in the oven, and the crumb structure comes out with plenty of large and small holes, which you might think wouldn't happen after putting all those dimples in the loaf. I think it helps, especially if the dough seems to be developing too many gigantic holes.
Are they an undesireable thing generally? I didn't know this. I'm always quite happy when I find them in my dough. I like how when they bake up the surface is papery and the surface under the bubble is...I don't know like it has the remnance of being gooey-er perhaps. This is interesting to me. Well at any rate thanks for the video Mark, it's beyond exciting when I get to watch people working with dough. It looked wonderful.
This reminds me a bit of a conversation I had with one of my buddies in high school. After hearing a joke, we both laughed, after which he asked me, "Was that funny?" I said, "Yes."
I think if you like big bubbles, they're desirable, if you don't, they're not desirable. Although bakers tend to like the big wholes in an open crumb, Joe Sixpack is probably going to say, "Then all my butter's going to leak out. I'm not paying for a bunch of air!"
At least around here they might.
Yes, I agree it's a matter of taste, no matter what. However, I think Eric's talking about really GIANT bubbles, which I'm not that excited about when I get them either, even though I like the random very big holes of a good ciabatta. Or, worse yet, it's particularly annoying to get one gigantic bubble right on top with not much around it but crust, even if the rest of the crumb is just great.
my favorite part! I like the bubbles in potato chips, I will fight for them too!
I always thought the Swiss were charging way too much for their cheese though, with all those holes....
Yes, they should give you little bits of Swiss cheese to fill all of those holes - no charge, of course.
Bill, if you saw some of the bubbles that have formed in some of our homeade pizzas, you would agree with my wife when she says, "They look like they could have their own ecosystem!"
The link to the video is only taking me to your home page. I've not had any problems with your other videos and would really like to watch this one. Would you mind sending me the link?
By the way, I was in awe over your 5 minutes in the bakery video. Amazing!
Here is the link to Mark's ciabatta video:
Thanks everybody. I'm glad you like it.
MiniO- I know in France 'baguettes' have a very specific size and shape/length, and as far as I can taste, this dough is pretty close. I don't know if in Italy, 'ciabattas' also have a specific size (18oz.?), but I think the shape is usually more loaf like. Other than that...? Obviously I didn't shape them like I normally do baguettes (on the table).
greenbaker- Didn't know that about the BBA. I figure any dough, any shape, right?
SOL- It's a 20qt Berkel, but I also have a 10qt bowl and hook that fit the same mixer. I was worried about getting a 'Hobart knock off', but am very pleased with this mixer. The container is a 12x18x9 cambro (12189P). This was the first time I tried leaving the dough in the container during folding- as you can see, it made it a little tricky, but I figured it saved me from adding more flour to the recipe.
Eric- I seem to have issues with surface bubbles with pizzas, but I think the constant shifting of the pans in the oven (top to bottom, left to right) with these loaves prevented that. I watched that specific bubble from the last fold stage to the third loaf out of the oven, and it seemed to hang in there. Hamelman calls for getting rid of the biggies; if I was buying it, I wouldn't want it in my loaf; other than that I thought I'd give it a shot to see what happened. If it's your preference, lance away!
I learn so much by watching and am sincerely thankful for those of you that post video's for the rest of us that are on a learning curve.
I enjoyed visiting your site, too, Mark. The sticky buns are on my list of things to make this long weekend. YEAH!
Eric, I also wondered about the blistering as I have this occur from time to time. (I have found myself 'attempting' to break them, but to no avail as the dough within the area always has it's mind set on doing what IT want's to do). I never thought to score them with a lame and see how that works. Another trick to try. Thanks!
One thing I noticed when doing the BBA poolish ciabatta recipe is that the hydration specified is a little lower than typical, especially if you don't use the maximum amount of water in the range of water in the recipe. It depends what flour you use and how much dusting flour you use and all that, of course, but to me the BBA poolish recipe comes out better, i.e. with more big and small holes like a ciabatta, if you use the maximum amount of water or even more.
Sorry, I somehow mixed up the BBA with the Hamelman recipe. I meant this comment to be relevant to the BBA recipe.
Bill: I don't make a lot of ciabatta but when I do I try to keep it as slack as possible so I do get those holes. I was surprised at how much rise Mark got and how the dough held shape so well. It must be the couch cloth that helped set the skin so it wouldn't sprawl. Those were nice looking.
The thing with popping the holes is that when I do, there seems to always to be more that rise and I end up deflating some things that I wish I hadn't.
That's an amazing mixer! Good video, Mark and Mrs. Mark!
These look more like baguettes (without the slashes) to me. I always thought that ciabatta were flatter (doesn't the word mean "slipper"?) and that a ciabatta was made from even slacker dough.
edit: I neglected to say that the bread looks great!
It's just not what I think of as ciabatta. When I make it, either white or whole wheat, the dough is much wetter. Your dough looks way more solid, if that's the right word and I'm not sure it is. But it's a very interesting video, as are all your videos that I've seen. Very informative. Elizabeth, you're quite right, ciabatta does mean slipper bread.
Yes, you and Elizabeth are correct about the meaning of 'ciabatta'. This was my attempt at making ciabatta dough into a longer loaf shape since we tend to use them more. A couple folks had asked for a video of me working with slack dough, so I figured I'd also show a different shaping/handling method in the process. Anyways, the hydration level is 65% (low) with AP flour, but no flour is added during the folding process, so it ends up being as sticky as my 72% ciabatta dough that has flour added along the way and is folded 'on the bench'.
Glad you guys liked it.
I don't know the percentages for the slack dough bread I make. But the dough is significantly slacker than the lovely dough you are stretching and folding in the video, Mark.
To give you an idea of how slack it is, it looks like scrambled eggs when I first pour it (yes, I said "pour") onto the kneading board.
Personally, I love big holes. And I really love sandwiches made from ciabatta-like bread - sandwiches made by cutting the bread in half parallel to the top of the loaf rather than perpendicular. (I hope that made sense)
Mark, maybe you can sell this idea to Joe Sixpack when he complains about the holes. Just tell him he can fit more meat into his sandwich.
Excellent ciabatta video presentation. I've done Rose Levy's ciabatta and she does it the way Bill W. describes, dimpling the dough. But I've got to tell you, I've been trying to do what you did in the video for months (make baguettes/batards) using ciabatta dough and haven't had a great deal of success. I'm sort of ashamed to say even stooped so low as to try it once in one of those baguette baking pans with the perforated holes (smile), still not good. So, now that I've seen how to do it I'm going to give it a try your way. Is that a 10 quart Berkel mixer? If so, how do you like it? For a couple of years I've been seriously thinking about buying a Berkel but wanted to talk to someone (at a local bakery or whatever) who has experience with Berkel, the 10 qt. in particular. Hobart, at $4,000 for their 12 qt. is out of the question, at least for me.
I'm using their 20 quart mixer, but I also have a 10qt bowl (+hook and flatbeater) that fit the same machine. I'd recommend this mixer and assume their 10qt is just as good. For what it's worth, they are 'Made in China', but for $1399 delivered (BigTray.com), you'll get a machine you probably won't be able to overload. Plus, you'll love how they knead.
I don't know what kind of canvas/duckcloth you use for your baguettes, but I would recommend one as heavy as you can get. I got ours from a ranch supply store (or army/navy), and it's much thicker than anything you could use for clothing. More like something you'd use for a hardcore duffel bag - $4 a linear foot (3' wide). Once it's floured, dough won't stick to it, and when you pull it from the middle, it won't wrinkle or stretch on you. If you need, I can send some out when I send out the bannetons.
Thanks for the info. on the Berkel mixer, much appreciated. It looks like a great machine and I'm going to buy one sometime in the not too distant future. Been trying to find a used Hobart 12 qt. but they hardly ever come up for sale. Even ones on e-bay, the used ones, that are in any kind of acceptable condition are selling for $1,000 plus. Anyway, I'm not a big fan of e-bay. Had a bad experience and now they're eliminating user reviews and ratings. Yeah, just take our word for it, there's a pig in this poke.
If it's not a big problem for you please do send enough of the canvas to make a couche long enough for 4 baguettes/batards (8' allowing for seams???). The one my wife made is 6' long and she had to run a seam through the middle to connect 2 pieces of material (seams are not our friends). If you can please send me 8 feet of canvas and just let me know the cost, along with the banneton cost, and I'll get it to you asap. I think the material I'm using is way too thin (plus it has the mid-seam). They call it canvas but it isn't anything close to what you describe.
Like mcs, I too have a Berkel, a 20 qt one. (I have a small business.) I've owned a Hobart-era K'Aid, a K'Aid circa 2007, and an Electrolux DLX too. The Berkel has been by far, my favorite. I've had it about a year now. It is quieter than any of the other machines, and does a more thorough job at kneading also. I've been working with small batches in my older KA recently, and it just doesn't want to pick up on the dough hook like in the Berkel. The new KA was a bomb--it overheated too easily, and the hook seemed to rip the dough in the process of kneading it. The DLX sounded as loud as a vacuum cleaner, and it required quite a learning curve to use it. The Berkel is much easier to use. If I ever decided just to bake for myself again, I'd trade my 20 qt in for a 10 qt in a heartbeat. BTW, when I was researching the purchase of a new mixer, an older baker told me that several years ago, Hobart bought the Berkel company, so now once Hobart upgrades their mixers, the older model becomes a Berkel. And he also told me that only if you're constantly making large batches of pizza dough or bagels do you need a Hobart.
Thanks for the info. on the Berkel. Glad to know that you really like yours and it's a really good machine. Mark seemed to indicate that the bowls for the 20 qt. and 10 qt. Berkel are interchangable, if you have a 20 qt. Berkel mixer. You might check into that, since you said you would like to have a 10 qt. Berkel. After you mentioned Hobart and Berkel were now owned by the same company I did a quick Google check and you're right. Illinois Tool Works (ITW) now owns both Hobart and Berkel. That's very reassuring. Appreciate you telling me that. Incidentally, I know you're right about large batches of bagel dough. I have a Ciril Hitz video from K.A. Flour and in the video he uses a 20 qt. Hobart to mix a batch of bagel dough and the Hobart is straining a little and vibrating under the load. That bagel dough is tough stuff to knead. Did it once (and only once) by hand. Kneading it by hand is definitely a workout . I don't plan to use the Berkel for that type application. I'll use it mainly for bread doughs. I have an old 5 qt. K.A. made in Troy, Ohio when Hobart owned K.A. I have 2 bowls for it so I can make double batches of dough in the same session. I really need something with more power and bowl capcity. But, I must say my K.A. has been a great machine.
The only reason why I'd purchase a 10 qt Berkel is for space considerations. I still use occasionally the older KA to do sample batches, as a teeny batch is hard to mix in a 20 qt mixer. I'm thinking about purchasing a 10 qt bowl, and giving my KA back to its rightful owner, my mom.
Just to let you guys know, if you want to fit a 10 qt bowl on a 20 qt machine, the bowl needs to be specifically designed for that. In other words, it's not the same 10 qt bowl that fits on the 10 qt machine. Just a heads up in case you go there. Of course you'd also need the matching dough hook (10qt hook for 20qt machine) and flat beater if you use one. It ends up being pretty expensive, but I figure for batches in the 4# range it works awesome, and a 10 qt. dough hook won't ever burn out a 20 qt. mixer. The only thing I use my KA for is whipping/mixing and low strain stuff like that. This is where I got my 10 qt bowl, hook, and flat beater.
I love your instructional videos and watch them several times. I've also saved your website as a favorite. Now, can you tell me who does the music in this current video? I really like it!
Kelly Joe Phelps, Lead Me On, 1994. Great choice, Mark. Love your new video.
Susan from San Diego
Wow Susan, I am very impressed that you could identify the music from this video. We've seen him perform a couple of times here in Montana, and really enjoy him (especially live). Trish, this is a shameless plug for his home page:
Yes, great video. But I was unduly distracted by the incredible music. I was about to post the question when I found your answer. Thanks, Susan. And thanks, Mark, for such great videos.
Years back, whenever we wanted to distract one of our friends from anything requiring focused attention (Monopoly, etc.), we would make sure that there was something playing on the stereo. It didn't have to be loud. She was so attuned to anything musical that as soon as she heard it, she would be lost in the music. So far as I know, she didn't play the radio while driving . . .
I'm usually so focussed that I'm oblivious to the background. But this music was so wonderful that I almost didn't pay attention to the ciabatta lesson.
I've gone to Amazona to order and it will be here Wednesday. I'm looking forward to it - as a child of the 60's it reminds me of my hippie days...
Remember flag pants? And I even went retro on my latest haircut, a short shag, from the 70's. Couldn't quite bring myself to do the 60's Big Hair here in SoCal. What good is life if you can't laugh at yourself! Peace,
with the flag sewed on the butt! Of course I could probably only get one leg into them now...Them were the good old days - can't wait to get my CDs - that music was so peaceful - love and flowers....
Sorry to butt in on your reminiscing ladies, but if you'd like to continue this conversation, you're going to HAVE to post pictures of your hippie days (fully clothed, please).
I will, if you willl and yes, fully clothed!
Great work Mark with all your videos. Thanks for making them for us to enjoy and learn from. And thanks for your website with all the recipes. You're very generous. weavershouse
Thanks for the videos, I love watching them and they really help me to see the steps.