Trouble with tartine semolina
Hi Everyone..
I'm trying to finally get back into more baking. Today I'm making the Tartine Semolina Sesame Fennel recipe. I don't find I'm getting any elasticity in the dough. I'm about two hour's into bulk and when I try to stretch and fold I'm getting the dough tearing. My starter is good as I'm also making a basic Tartine loaf and that's going well. But not so much with this loaf. It's 350 to 150 - durum semolina to bread flour with 80% water and about 15% sesame/fennel by weight. And I have it in a proffer at 80 degrees. Anyone make this and have the same issue? I've seen successful bakes on the site of this recipe, but no one seems to have had a problem that I can find - let alone a solution. It doesn't call for much kneading/mixing so I'm hoping with time I'll get proper gluten development. All comments appreciated. Thanks, frank!
In this first picture you can see how the skin tears as I try to stretch it..
In this one you can see that I tore a peace while trying to (gently) stretch ..
Durum Semolina Flour.
Durum is the type of wheat. Semolina and Flour are grades of the grind. Semolina being coarse and flour being fine. There are even different grades of semolina from coarse to fine and flour is extra fine or reground semolina.
Now when a recipe says [durum] semolina flour, which I've seen before, what does it mean?
What does the recipe say exactly? And what did you use?
Fine semolina can be used in place of durum flour but hydration will differ. Coarse semolina is not recommended. The gluten will tear!
Abe: Has the original post been edited since you wrote? Now it just says "durum semolina", which is not particularly ambiguous, though I guess open to at least a little interpretation.
(Or are you saying that the published recipe contains the ambiguity?)
OR
Perhaps I've misunderstood completely, and you're saying that semolina is probably the wrong thing despite the OP, that in your opinion it ought to be durum flour and leave the semolina out of the equation.
Recipe might have said durum semolina, meant fine semolina but coarse might have been used.
Recipe could have said the wide open to interpretation durum semolina flour but only durum semolina is quoted in the question.
In any case when semolina is mentioned for bread then coarse shouldn't be used but the finer semolina will work nicely. If the recipe means durum flour, gives the ambiguous semolina flour in the recipe then lower hydration will be needed if using semolina. And vice versa. Durum flour will always work, and in my opinion makes a better bread, but needs higher hydration than semolina.
But semolina flour is like saying - a coarse fine grind.
When doing an autolyse I always start off lower than the final dough hydration and add in extra water when adding the levain and salt till it feels right.
The recipe doesn't really go into it much other than to talk about using Semolina flour - there's no distinction from fine to coarse grind. It says in the opening passage "Durum semolina is what gives pasta it's characteristic yellow color. In southern italy, finely ground semolina was most often cheaper than white sifted wheat flour and was used to make the daily bread of Sicilians, called pane rimacinato." So with that I used a fine grind Italian rimacinata version I had on hand.I think it's what I should have used but not sure. Here's a picture of the flour I used: https://tinyurl.com/y3pndpz6
I think your and Danni's comments were right that I needed to add more water than the 80% called for. But as it is I'm warming up the oven and will simply plop the dough in pan and see how she goes. I couldn't form any structure or shape it. It's in a round glass bowl and I left it out at 72 degrees overnight. It's about 50% bigger and I'm hopeful not to deflate it as I pry it out of the bowl.
I'm sure it will be edible! I'll post a picture later. Thanks for the advice and input. frank!
You used rimacinanta which is re-milled semolina aka durum flour. The recipe is talking about fine semolina in which case you would have needed more water.
But here is what is confusing. 80% hydration for durum flour should have been ample. The recipe does talk of semolina but then talks of finely ground semolina and pane rimacinato which seems to imply durum flour which is what you are using.So I'm thinking there's a bit of confusion, the recipe is talking about semolina (albeit fine semolina) and you used durum flour in which case more water was needed.
So I think what Frank used should have been just fine. I just took a peek at the recipe and it uses 700 g of semolina flour and 300 g of bread or AP flour. Maybe your flour was extra thirsty?
Lol :)
That means "coarse fine grind".
It's either semolina or flour. But yes it doesn't explain the issue as Frank used durum flour and at 80% hydration, even if a bit off, shouldn't have looked like that.
Abe: I think imagining that there is just one accepted terminology everywhere is a mistake. The names for this stuff vary from country to country, and from region to region. The fact that you learned it this way may mean nothing in another place - or worse, may mean something exact but different.
"Semolina flour" does have a clear meaning: "Not whole flour; flour made from the semolina, not from the whole grain".
Has a meaning and it means coarse or grit like. Flour has a meaning which means finely ground. I think because people have a misunderstanding there should be one accepted meaning.
Original Latin meaning of the same word: "The finest flour".
Later Italian meaning: "Bran".
Latest Italian meaning: "Grits".
Take your pick. ?
Really really wanting certain words to have consistent worldwide meanings, has a name: wishful thinking. "Semolina" doesn't have a consistent meaning at all, and wishing can't make it so.
So it doesn't mean flour nor does it have to be durum!
I'm not wishing anything. I'm just saying what it is. Semolina today means grits of a hard wheat. It isn't flour from one particular wheat. Cream of Wheat is semolina from common wheat.
Either way you were right. I should have added more water in hindsight. No oven spring after taking the lid off just now, but boy the house sure smells nice! :) Will post pictures later tonight or tomorrow. Thanks
I didn't appreciate the difference. I thought I was using semolina flour, but need to read up on the difference properly. As to hydration, there is always the possibility I just made a mistake in my measurements - hard to know right now. I just took the lid off and there was no oven spring, but it sure smells nice!! Will post a picture with crumb later today or tomorrow.. Many thanks.. frank!
with the salt, right?
I did.. I think I wont' know why.. but will at least get a sense of the taste..
It will be too late by now but I would have added water to it.
This was a dud!. Not sure what went wrong and not overly stressed. What I did learn however is that the amount of fennel called for (7.5%) was much too strong for my liking. The first picture is how it looked after I let it fall out of the glass bowl it sat in overnight. The second is when I tore off a piece to give it a bite.. on to the next.. thanks for all the comments above..
I am thinking about what to make next weekend and was thinking of the Golden raisin fennel version of your Tartine Semolina bread. Guess I better find something else as inspiration!
Here is Alan's take on golden raisin and fennel bread with pine nuts using durum flour. It's delicious! Highly recommended.