New to sourdough,looking for more rise and oven spring
Hello,
I've just gotten into baking in the past few months and have been mostly working through the straight yeasted doughs and those with pre ferments out of FWSY by Forkish. Having had some good success I've decided to try sourdough. I've begun my starter two weeks ago using the No Muss No Fuss rye starter featured on this site. I have used this recipe I discovered on You Tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRM&t=0s&list=PLThg30CEfUaGwxTOc3g-QVih8cQcpgvaz&index=2
I've made the recipe 4-5 times and some early loaves were met with moderate success but the past several loaves have not been so good. I am looking for more rise during bulk and final proof,more oven spring and a more open/less dense crumb. My starter seems fairly active. It always doubles and is bubbly after feedings but usually never more than that. Levain always passes float test. Below is my procedure and time table.
Day one in the PM
9:00 AM Mix the levain.
25 grams of mature starter (mine is 100% rye)
25 grams unbleached AP flour
25 grams whole wheat
45 grams water at 70 degrees
2:30 Autolyse all flours and water for 30 minutes
135 grams bread flour
250 grams unbleached AP flour
85 grams whole wheat
345 grams water at 90 degrees
3:00 Mix final dough
All of autolysed flours,all of levain and 9 grams of salt.
Use stretch,fold and pincer method to incorporate all ingredients.
Let bulk ferment at 75 degrees for the next four hours. Do three series of stretch and
folds during the first 1.5 hours.
7:00 Preshape the loaf into a boule. Let bench rest.
7:30 Shape loaf and place into floured banneton. Cover and place in refrigerator overnight,14-15 hours.
Day Two in the AM
9:00 AM preheat oven with dutch oven to 500 degrees
10:00 AM Reduce oven to 475 degrees. Score loaf and place in dutch oven.
Bake for 30 minutes covered. Uncover the dutch oven and bake 20 minutes
or until deep brown,reaches 205 -210 internal temperature and sounds hollow when thumped.
The loaf pictured below was one of the first loaves which turned out better than some of my latter loaves. It seems as though I am not getting the rise and oven spring I get from yeasted doughs. Maybe this is to be expected however I have seen SD loaves on this site with better oven spring. My questions are as follows:
1) How do I get better rise and oven spring? Should I add more active,mature starter to the Levain?
2) If my dough is very slow to rise should I try the final proof at 70 degree room temp overnight?
3) The taste of the bread is quite good,however the crumb is moister than the other yeasted Forkish loaves I have been baking. Is this typical of SD?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions people may have. I've gotten great responses to prior posts and will hope for more of the same. Happy baking to all.
Best,
Vance
I reckon if my first few SD loaves had looked like that, I’d have been over the moon :)
Try giving your autolyse a brief knead half way through, and again at the end after you’ve put the salt in. I find it really assists the gluten development. If you want still more, reduce the amount of water in the autolyse and compensate by using an increased amount of fully hydrated starter - mixing runny starter into stiff autolyse can be a bit messy though :)
For example, for a 1kg loaf, I use 667g of autolyse at 65% hydration, then add 333g of fully hydrated levain to achieve a final hydration of about 70%.
It’s also important to get a good amount of tension in the dough during the shaping process - I found this video really helped me with that:
Martin,
Thanks for the tips about autolyse and hydration. I'll give them a try.
Vance
BF = Bulk Fermentation and Bread Flour. You might be over-fermenting it. How was the dough after fridge retard? Above the rim of your form? Four hours plus pre/shape and rest @ 75degF might be a bit too long esp followed by 13+ hrs in the fridge (at what temp?). From my experience, you don’t need the bread flour. It works against you unless you know for a fact that your AP is unusually low in protein (in which case it shouldn’t be labeled “AP”). Yes, the books say 11.5% is ideal for this style of bread. But the typical ~10.5% of many APs is fine.
Keep at it. You’re pretty much there.
Tom
Tom,
Thanks for the comments about bulk ferment times and bread flour. I think part of my problem is that I am expecting the rise in BF and final proof to be similar to those I experience with yeasted doughs and I'm starting to think that is a faulty expectation with SD. After the frig retard it ha gained maybe 30% by volume and no,it had not reached the top of the banneton. How does the use of bread flour work against me in this case? Still very much on a steep learning curve!! I will try adjusting BF and flour types. Thanks again.
Best,
Vance
Dough should exhibit your desired balance of extensibility (ability to stretch) and elasticity (tendency to contract back after stretching). Bread flour's higher (than AP) gluten concentration increases the dough's elasticity and thus its resistance to allowing alveoli of fermenting dough to grow in volume. The stuff came to be labeled "bread flour" at a time when people were not seeking the holier-than-though crumb structures that have become so fashionable nowadays. Useful for sandwich breads where you want the jam to stay between the slices and not in your lap.
Tom
I've had loaves like that. What fixed it for me were two things:
(1) ignore everyone's guess about how long it will take to rise. It depends too much on temperature, your starter's characteristics, exact ratio of starter to the rest of the dough, and even things like the amount of salt, type of flour, etc, etc. Too many variables. Don't be afraid to just let it rise for another hour, or three, or five! Seriously, this is my best advice. I've never myself over-proofed sourdough, but multiple times I've thought "surely it must be ready to bake by now" or "damn I've got to get to work" and so I just threw it in the oven hoping for oven spring and ended up with a short gummy loaf. People fear over-proofing because they come from the commercial yeast world where it is much easier to over-proof a loaf.
(2) Knead, knead, knead, then also rest and do stretch and folds. I know a lot of people don't knead sourdough, but I'm pretty sure it won't hurt anything. Always works for me. Get it to pass the window test. And use good shaping technique, get it nice and tight on top. Good springy dough always seems to rise better.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the thoughts on amount/time of proofing for SD.Yes,as I mentioned in my post I think I am relying on seeing rise volumes like my yeasted doughs and the two are not the same animal. I have been doing only stretch and folds but will try doing some needing.
Do you retard all of your loaves overnight and if so what kind of rise do you experience? I have the feeling you are going to tell me it differs by each case!!!!
Best,
Vance
As with everything, it depends. My fridge is 2-3C and I see no more rise in the fridge. I do it so I can bake anytime I want and bake it cold.
I get a little rise when I retard in my 10C drinks fridge, which I bought for storing starter and retarding bread. I usually leave it out for a few hours to warm up and possibly rise a bit more before baking.
If I retard in my 3C food refrigerator, it just stays a cold heavy lump for a very long time. I never had much luck with that, but I'm sure other people get it to work so look to others for advice on that.
Also, I didn't mention before, since your starter is new it might just be the starter. I've found that starters change flavor and speed up several times during the first six weeks or so.
For higher hydration doughs, I like the Rubaud method for mixing/kneading. Don't know how low the hydration can be for it to still work, but it also depends on what kind of flour you use.
Thanks Heikjo! I've seen videos and done some very short periods of it on this dough as it is slack enough to work. However,I've never done enough of it to have any real effect I think.
10-15 minutes is all you need. I find that the dough becomes easier to handle for the S&F phase when doing this.