The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Urgent help required!

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Urgent help required!

I am about to begin the final ferment of Yohan Ferrant's Do Nothing Bread (my first attempt!)  the bulk ferment has been going for 18 hours at 21C in my Brod and Taylor. Should I do the final ferment at the same temperature or something higher, say 24 or 25C? I'd be very grateful for some instant help from anyone who is currently on line. Valerie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Something out by now.  I'm not familiar with the recipe but quickly looking at the recipes tell me that the dough should be shaped after it has doubled in volume.  Did it do that? Final proofing time will also vary with temp so be on your toes.  As with most sourdoughs, I would not let the proof reach double but bake it before it gets that big.

https://forum.breadtopia.com/t/yohan-ferrants-do-nothing-bread/3992/2

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Many thanks for your response, Mini. Yes, I did go ahead and did a short final ferment at 24C . The bread had great oven spring, great flavour and a crumb openness that I found adequate. The only problem was one that I have with all my breads and for which I have never been able to find a solution. In spite of long baking, my loaves always feel a little damp and leave a gummy residue on the knife when  they are sliced. The bread is fine when toasted but I would like to know if others find this problem with bread made with a high percentage of wholegrain. I would like to bake 100% w/w but at present I am using only 80%. Unfortunately, this reduction has not helped with the problem. I have made every modification I can think of but to no avail. Valerie

 

joe_n's picture
joe_n

Hi,

I noticed that gumminess (to varying degrees) has to do with the size of the pan.

If a 500g wholewheat flour (90% hydration, 450 gr water) is baked as 1 boule baked to 208-210F, there is a slight gumminess.  If I split the dough into 3 smaller ones, then the gumminess is gone.

I have some dough ready to go tomorrow and will probably bake them as smaller ones.  Another advantage is that the crust will keep the bread fresher longer since they won't be cut open until they are to be eaten.

Hope this helps!

 

PS I use Elly's 100% ww recipe on YT.

 

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Your comments are very interesting, Joe. Thank you for this suggestion. I usually bake weekly. 1kg flour, 90% hydration, which I bake as two boules. I will have a look at Elly's YT post. Currently I bake my loaves for 2 hrs and still   have the dreaded gumminess! Valerie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in hydration.  More surface area ---> more water leaving the loaf during the bake.

breadyandwaiting's picture
breadyandwaiting

Since you've tried a lot of recipe modifications without luck, one thing to suggest: how long are you waiting after pulling out of the oven to slice into the loaf? If you're doing it immediately, try giving it some time before cutting open. 

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Many thanks for your reply. I have learned so much from the experienced bakers on this site. I never slice the loaf until the next day, so the answer must lie elsewhere. I am beginning to wonder if a high percentage of wholewheat characteristically produces a moister loaf than white flour. Valerie

David R's picture
David R

... of those situations where too much fermentation can cause gummy results, because the flour has been broken down a bit too well? I'm not experienced enough to know.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Nor I David. I suppose I will  keep on modifying one thing at a time until I accidentally hit on a solution! Maurizio at The Perfect Loaf has a recipe for a 100% wholewheat loaf that seems to turn out beautifully but therre is no way I could bake my bread for only one hour. Many thanks for your response. Valerie

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Nor I David. I suppose I will  keep on modifying one thing at a time until I accidentally hit on a solution! Maurizio at The Perfect Loaf has a recipe for a 100% wholewheat loaf that seems to turn out beautifully but therre is no way I could bake my bread for only one hour. Many thanks for your response. Valerie

David R's picture
David R

There are really only two kinds of bread recipes: Works, and Doesn't Work. As long as it fits the first category and not the second one, who cares how long it takes (or doesn't take) in the oven?

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Spoken like a true pragmatist, David. I agree completely but even after longer than usual baking my bread is still gummy. Great toast, though! Many thanks for your comments. Valerie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or giving the loaf an extra 5 min in the oven?  Got any pictures?

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

I have been trying  to send some pictures, Mini, but unfortunately my computer skills are very limited. Disappointingly, this week's bake is still gummy. I think it might be underproofed? Again, when toasted, the bread is fine. I tried to reduce the hydration but my flour seems to be very thirsty and I cannot incorporate all the flour with less than 820g water. This is my recipe and I follow Maurizio's method for 100% ww. I bake my loaves in springform pans inside a dutch oven as the d/ovens are too large and allow the dough to spread out too much. I have tried to solve my problem by including 200g baker's white flour.

800 ww finely ground atta flour, wholewheat

200 white baker's flour

3 tbspn gluten

3 tbspn linseeds, not soaked

300 levain (ratio of 25:50:84)

820 water

20 salt

The dough is not very extensible, in spite of S/Fs x6. The loaves test between 98-99C after a long cooking period.

10 mins@ 250

10 mins @ 230

40 mins @ 210

40 mins @ 185

25 mins in turned off oven.

i cannot think of any other modification. Perhaps baking without a dutch oven? Could gluten cause gumminess?

Thank you so much for all your suggestions and your willingness to assist a struggling baker. Valerie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

can cause gummy crumb.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Thank you, Mini, David and Joe for all your suggestions. You are kind souls to point me in directions that might help . Certainly, your words have increased my knowledge and given me the confidence to continue. For yesterday's bake, I succumbed to frustration and modified two elements of my method, rather than the more sensible "one thing at a time" approach. I eliminated the gluten that I had beleieved was necessary with ww flour and also reduced the hydration to 75%. Miracle of miracles - no gumminess when loaves were sliced the next morning! I still had to bake for 2 hrs but as you say, David, this fact is of no importance if I end up with a better loaf. Thanks again to all three. Valerie

joe_n's picture
joe_n

just a thought-

Have you tried your recipe with a ww flour like King Arthur WW in place of the atta flour?

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

Thanks, Joe. I think this avenue must be my next step after I have eliminated the gluten, as Mini suggestedI live in a regional area in Australia, where quality flour is not easy to obtain, and ordering online is too expensive for me. However, next time I visit the city I will look out for a flour other than atta. My reason for purchasing it was that it is very finely milled. Sifting it produces only about a spoonful of grittty bran- no flakes. I am madly envious of all the magnificent loaves. I see posted on TFL and wish that I were able to produce similar ones. Many thanks for your suggestion. Valerie

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Atta flour is a high gluten flour made from hard wheat with a lot of starch damage during processing so you may need a new strategy to reduce the amount of gluten like combining with low gluten or gluten free flours. No need to add gluten.  It is a very thirsty flour.

What other grains, cereals, nuts do you have available?

David R's picture
David R

... has all been made from durum wheat.

I don't know if that makes a difference.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum

Well.... good points.  Hardness and gluten availability 

got an idea or two....  look over altamura bread and see how the originators bring out the gluten in the flour.  I remember an Aunt making a batter of flour and water in the mixer and just letting it run for about 20 minutes. Then thickening up with more flour and kneading a long time.  Or three...  Maybe tips could come from earlier posts on Atta bread.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

You have certainly given me food for thought, Mini. I am very grateful for all your suggestions for paths that I might follow in order to produce a more satisfactory loaf. Given that I must change only one thing at a time, I intend to omit the gluten when I bake this coming weekend. I included it after reading that ww flour was deficient in gluten. I have so much information swimming around in my brain that at times I feel quite befuddled!  I'm reading up on atta flour ; it seems that several bakers on TFL have produced impressive loaves using this flour. Who would have thought that the pursuit of a presentable loaf could become so obsessive! Again, my thanks. Valerie.

ValerieC's picture
ValerieC

thank you, David, for your response. I am reading about atta flour and searching out earlier posts by bakers who have used this flour. Back to the drawing board. First off, I am going to eliminate the added gluten, which I had included in the belief that durum ww was deficient in gluten. The things I have learned from this site could make a book! Thank you very much for your attempts to set me on a better baking path. Valerie