Please help me recreate the bread of my childhood!
Hi all,
I'm a complete novice (at most forms of cooking...) armed with a new Panasonic breadmaker. As a child, a friend of the family would bake what I consider to be the most marvelous bread. It may be important to note that this was in Greece, in case there are geographical differences in bread making, ingredients etc. I now live in the UK.
My recollection of the bread:
• White bread. (but see next section)
• Hint of olive oil, salt flabours.
• Key bit: Whilst it could be sliced perfectly easily, the bread was "brittle". If you pulled it appart, it would "snap" with jagged breaks. It would not "stretch" like pretty much all the bread I find in england.
• Key bit 2: It was very dense. One large slice and you feel full, and I can normaly put away a lot of bread. No obviously large air gaps as you get with store-bread, but definitely not flat bread(!).
Funnily enough when I google for these things they appear to be considered mistakes in bread making, but this was consistently made this way and it was fabulous. Also, I remember the bread being pretty rectangular (not domed) if this makes a difference. Imagine that can't be recreated in a bread maker.
Hazy recollections from discussions with cook:
• Contrary to look and taste, was told it was 50% white flour and 50% what I believe was wholemeal. As my greek isn't the best, this may have been 50% brown, or possibly, 50% something else entirely.
• She was under the belief it was very simple and I shouldn't have trouble recreating it. She said she used "magia" (for any greek speakers!) - I think this just means yeast.
My first attempt:
• 300g strong white flour, 200g strong wholemeal flour, 370cl water, 1 teaspoon fast acting yeast, 1.5 teaspoons salt, 2 tablespoons olive oil. 5 hour cycle, menu 04 ("50% wholemeal").
Result: Elastic bread, similar to store-bought. Didn't really taste the olive oil or salt. Tasted a little too wholemeally. Nice enough but just not remotely close...
Thoughts on what to adjust? Is it possible greeks use something other than strong flour? That I should reduce water, or increase olive oil/salt? Am I looking for the impossible with a breadmaker?
Ta!
Also: can we please for the love of god remove the captcha-check on every post it is driving me nuts!
of Greece you grew up in to zero in on it. What was the shape of the bread - round, rectangular loaf, batard shape?
Athens, although that's not to say she grew up there. I should add that I'm moderately familiar with greek bread as brought in greek bakeries, this home made bread differed yet still. (Although, much prefer that bread to UK bread generally speaking). From what I remember shape was rectangular similar to supermarket-bought sliced loaves, but not as perfectly sized of course.
Now I think of it pretty sure she was raised in glyfada
under traditional breads of Athens
The bakery’s specialty is a big whole-wheat country loaf, made with a mixture of soft and hard wheat, barley and oats. Once mixed, the dough undergoes three risings over eight days and is then shaped and baked in a wood-fired oven. Remarkably nutty and earthy, with a compact crumb and a well-browned, crackling crust, this is a loaf of substance: just one slice keeps us satisfied for hours. One loaf could feed a family of four for a week.
https://culinarybackstreets.com/cities-category/athens/2013/pnyka/
https://www.thespruceeats.com/horiatiko-psomi-greek-bread-1705594
Thank you. I've no idea how that would taste, so no basis to know if similar. I would say it sounds far too complex with the three risings etc, to be what she did. Did not take her a week. Would surprise me if it had oats too..particularly if that means "bitty". I'd notice that in a hearbeat as fussy eater :)
I notice it talks about "soft" flour. Is this the stuff used in the UK for cakes, ie, not, "strong" flour? Should I look to mix in some of this, despite most packages saying it isn't good for bread making? Eg strong white with not-strong brown or wholemeal? Any suggestions to get the effect I talk about?
Thanks, but no, I've had several xoriatiko/prosimi/kalamboki etc breads from greek bakeries. As I mentioned, the breads you find in a chain greek bakery are not it. I'm not expecting a hyperlink to magically uncover it as appart from anything else it will be impossible to identify from simply a picture. This is a home cook. That's why I'm trying to focus on texture, taste etc, and the facts I do know, rather than speculate on it being some traditional, well known greek bread.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15470/greek-bread-improved#comment-98440
The whole post is great, as usual, but look for the comments by rossnroller, from here down; he shares some native-Greek-grandma baking tips. The upshot is AP flour, a big dose of starter, limited gluten development, and no bulk fermentation--straight into pans after kneading.
The basic bread dough flour, water, and salt will be easy, what you do to that dough will be the fun part. Keep in mind that bread from memories changes with time. Go after a bread flavour and texture that pleases you if the bread maker cannot achieve it as written.
You may have to place the prepared dough into the bread maker to rise and then bake automatically but half the fun is watching it rise and bake in the oven. A baking form traps in a good deal of moisture whereas a free form shape gets a more crispy crust all around. Location, that may also mean that there are some local spices and/or seeds being added to the dough that you may not have noticed as a child. Various surrounding land aromas change with the seasons and contribute, combined with food, make unique experiences. Take a slow blind folded walk and sniff test through your Mediterranean spice cupboard. Nigella and cumin come to mind, grasses and sea breezes.
If using instant yeast try cutting down the amount to lengthen the fermenting time. Use olive oil only to lightly coat the fermenting bowl, it's enough. Pinch off a 100g piece of the dough after the first doubling of the dough. Save it in the fridge to use into the next loaf to help flavour as a prefermented part of the dough. If using a higher gluten flour, let the dough ferment longer to break down much of the tension formed in the dough during kneading. Or try doubling the yeast and working faster, it can also be an eye opener! How far back is your childhood? It can make a difference.
Basic recipe tools:
Flour 100%. Water between 50% to 70% (hydration.) Salt 1 to 3 % of flour weight (most settle at 1.8 to 2%)
So. 500g flour. Between 250g to 350g water About 10g or two level teaspoons heavy table salt. Instant yeast can vary but 7g is a fast fermenting loaf with about an hour bulk ferment to double the volume. Temperature plays a big role in fermenting time.
To check basic hydration take water weight and divide by flour weight then multiply by 100 to get %.
That looks really promising, thank you. Do you mind helping me put it into total newbie terms?
Recipe wise in UK lingo it would seem to be:
•350g plain white flour
• 150g plain wholemeal flour
• 40g(???) of "sourdough starter" *bought from amazon ;) )
• Somewhat more than 370cl water?
• 2 teaspoons of salt? More, less?
Once I nail this down I can ask about the method in the breadmaker forum.
as you can see it explains this recipe amounts.
Mini - thank you also. I'm near 100% certain there were no seeds / anything that would have affected an uneven texture. I'm an extremely fussy eater and pick up on anything that isn't consistent or bland. (Whether I then like it is another question). A tiny but on the autistic spectrum I think. 98% sure there were no spices or herbs. I'm very prepared to believe it was sourdough though, could well have been the cause of the richness of flavour I remember.
I'd also like to maximise use of the breadmaker, particularly for anything that requires judgement - I'm severely sight impaired. But I'll pick up on that in the relevant forum I think.
milled with the flour. A rock is a handy kitchen tool. So is a hammer. And water infusions (tea) can do a lot to add subtle flavour. What did you like and not like to eat for breakfast as a child? (There is a method to my madness.)
pinched off and used to raise the next loaf. Something you can try right away, reguardless the type of yeast. You can also just make a stiffish dough ball without yeast and leave it alone for a week to get a starter going. See:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/58132/starter-very-young-it-works
Thanks for the edit Mini but I'm going off this comment, rather than further up, in the linked post, as it seems to resonate most:
"He thinks the bread I had as described above was the commercial version of traditional Greek sourdough as his Grandma bakes it. Because of the greyness of the crumb, he suspects - as you suggested - that a small proportion of wholemeal flour would have been included in the mix, but that the bulk of the dough would have comprised AP flour. Essentially, his Grandma's bread is a typical pain au levain, the only difference being that it has fork pricks in the crust (aesthetic function only - the bread has a good rise, not flattish) and that the loaves are traditionally huge (several kilos). Usually baked in a wood-fired oven, which lends a smoky flavour he finds delicious.
He was adamant that no sugar or honey is ever used, and added that olive oil may be added, but that this is not so common - his Grandma never uses anything but AP flour, salt and water. Starter is very high hydration (he thinks well over 100%) and makes up about a third of the dough."
Re-reading the lasdt part re the starter having its "own" hydration level and being a huge portion of the dough I'm now a bit lost as to what the recipe looks like!
dissolved in part or all the recipe water to make it easier to incorporate into the flour so could easily be that the starter looked like a high hydration starter just before mixing up the dough. Climate wise, a thin starter all the time would be tricky to manage in warm hot weather.
That smoky flavour is a hard one to copy in a home oven. Did come close once baking bread right after making ribs and a roast in the oven. So I suppose that means don't clean the oven first before baking. :)
Looks like you have your homework cut out for you. Start a notebook if you haven't and keep lots of detail like location, flour types, temps, water, times, aromas, tastes, observations etc. the more detail the better. Just start and see where your journey takes you. Include the disasters too. Write big so you can read it later!
Mini
Thanks for all this - I think I'll have a go with the different flour, reduced water and normal yeast before working up to figuring out the sourdough angle which I'm still not entirely hot on even after reading the links.
I don't suppose you have any thoughts around what the ideal type of cycle would be for the breadmaker?
(that should help attract an answer...). exactly which breadmaker?
Panasonic SD-ZB2502BXC Stainless Steel Bread Maker
Hi I sometimes use an older Panasonic, SD 253, these days mainly for mixing some doughs and the rest period. I then proof the dough and bake in the oven to my preferred shape. I wonder whether you have the machine's "manual" and once you have determined how much flour and water you intend to use for this bread, find the nearest equivalent in the manual and use the breadmaker settings for that recipe. In my book it says to use the Whole Wheat programmes if using Wholemeal flour. If you were to use strong brown flour rather than wholemeal then on my machine the Basic programmes are preferred.
I do have the manual, and for reference every cycle is described in terms of "Rest...Knead...Rise...Bake".
Aside: I've no idea why ingredients just need to sit there and rest before it gets into action?! Is it a bad name and actually means "mix"? If so how are mixing and kneading any different when its just the single paddle revolving...
The following factors are at play here however:
• The manual assumes strong flour is used in all cases
• I'm trying to recreate the conditions described for making this specific bread, rather than the breads in the manual. So for example, a) I'm using less water than in the recipe book and b) apparently I shouldn't have any "bulk fermentation". I'm asuming that means no rise period at all? Does it therefore need an extended kneading period? etc. Doesn't help that near every option appears to have a rise period...
So that's why I'm struggling to figure out how best to use the machine...