The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

rising but lack of verticle

metropical's picture
metropical

rising but lack of verticle

while the loaves haven't looked or tasted bad, the one disappointment I am having is spread above the pan edge rather than holding the vertical.

It's about 50/50 between bread and other flours.  Some boiled wheat and rye berries and choc malt (aka roasted barley).
The loaf uses natural yeast starter of AP and rye, and no yeast is added. 

I let the loaf counter proof 2 to 3 hours and poke it, though I know poke isn't the best test for multigrain.  So it goes.

Would more salt help this (2.5 tsp currently)?  Almost seems as if the gluten strands can't hold on after a point, though I don't think it's over proofed.

 

Thoughts?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What a tease!   How about the recipe and the pan size? 

It looks like either overproofed (lots of pinholes in the crust) or too much dough in the pan.  Any bulk rise or foldings?  How about a crumb shot?

salt...2 1/2 tsp is about 12.5 g, if that is 2 % of the flour then the loaf contained.... 650g flour?   At roughly 130g per cup that's  650/130g = 5 cups of flour.... is that about right?

Now about that pan size...

 

metropical's picture
metropical

I know.  I'm a terrible tease.  tee hee hee

the pan is 10x5 if I remember right.

the formula is:

95 g (3/4 c) whole wheat flour 

78 g (1/2 c) Rye flour 

300 g (2 c) bread flour

37 g (1/4 c) buckwheat flour

33 g (1/4 c) teff flour

2 g (1 tsp) barley malt powder

? g ( 2 Tbsp) gluten C

70 g (3/4 c) oats

60 g (2.5 Tbsp) malt syrup 

~360 g (2c ) 100% starter

? g (1.25 c) <90° liquid (beer and water, most often)

 30g (2 Tbsp) rye berries

30g (2 Tbsp) wheat berries 

15g (1 Tbsp) Choc malt 

the above berries, Cooked in 1c water for 30 mins. till the water is gone.

autolyse of about 45 mins before salt is added. 2.5 tsp.
rise before bake about 2-3 hrs.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Wow!  What a recipe!  And what a crumb shot!  Not for the weak or meek at heart.  I can picture your pet bear tearing the loaf in two inspecting and drooling over the aromas.   Did you cut it or rip it open with your teeth? :)

I'm going to look at the recipe further but first thinking what about a docking about half way thru the final rise? That might take out some of the large bubbles and give some idea how the rise is going.  Maybe bake skippping the slashing.  Is it difficult to cut?  I don't see compressed crumb Newark the bottom so perhaps there is just too much dough in the pan.

I think the autolyse is in essence the "bulk ferment" if it includes the starter. Without salt, the fermenting results can vary greatly between bakes.  Temperature changes will have dramatic effects.  Inclusion of salt will help control the fermentation and possibly hold the loaf together longer before it bakes.

Mini

metropical's picture
metropical

yea, but it's a nice ABJ and B sammich with a cup of high test.

Truth be known, the cat was road racing the other day before breakfast, which usually has an unpleasant result.
So I gave him the bread knife and told him to cut the bread before I fed breakfast.
The whole opposing thumbs thing is apparently an issue.
Anyway, he is hurt by the insinuation that he is a bear.  He say he can kick any bears butt!

What's a docking?  I guess a punch down?

I like the slash, it is not difficult to cut.  It's a recipe I've used for years, but due to variation in climate, starter, blah, blah, blah., it sometimes has issues.  But perhaps this one was over proofed.
Guess I'll experiment with time to rise instead of poking.




disheartened Owen

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Total flour and grain comes out to 882g.  Flour is 642g without the starter (180g) or the cooked berries (60g dry.)  So 2.5 tsp is around 1.2% or low salt.  (2% would be 18g)  (1.8% 16g or a little over one Tbs. heavy table salt.)   So you could raise it up to 3 tsp  or 15g if you want to.  If using flaked salt, it weighs less per volume so more salt would be beneficial.

Water:  I added the syrup as water because it behaves that way in this recipe, I get 540 total.  That gives 66% hydration on the dough.  The cooked berries will give up moisture to the dough during the bake. 

Flour break up:  

  • Low Gluten flours 173g   (27% of 642g flour)   Including 12% rye
  • Non gluten flours 157g   ( 24%)
  • gluten 12g   (1.8%)  
  • Bread flour 300g   (47%)

 

  • 180g flour in the starter, so depending upon the maturity or fermentation of the starter, it can help or hinder dough strength.  
  • berries 60g  fully hydrated

 Just throwing these figures out there the way I see them so relationships are easier to see.  :) 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You could also change the mixing order to get more dough strength.  One way might be to soak the whole flour and rye with 1 to 1.5 tsp.salt for several hours in water while cooking up the berries and letting them cool.  You might eventually*  get away with dropping the high gluten flour or reducing it.

* edit from even to eventually , one change per bake.  Try salt water soaking first.  If the dough strength is improved, then with the following bake, eliminate half the high gluten.  Keep notes.

metropical's picture
metropical

never tried the pre-soak.  By whole flour I assume you mean just the ww & rye, not the non-gluten flours?  Do I adjust the salt amount added after autolyse?
But I think first I'll try eliminating the gluten + Vit C.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

gets more wet time and soaking helps develop gluten, what little there is, and soften the bran. The salt helps control enzymes and tighten protein bonds.  The rest salt can go in when mixing up the dough.  Sorry to insult kitty, kitty is right, bears have rounded ears and big butts.  Took too much journalistic liberty, sorry, somehow can't visualize a cat tearing a loaf in half, even one that wears welding glasses.  Cutting torch?  That should perk you up, Owen.

Docking would be (wetting a toothpick or something similar and) poking deep holes about the top dough surface to release large air bubbles forming underneath.  The dough normally closes the holes (but still leaves the marks) soon after being made or one can close them with a wet spoon or finger and make any marks disappear. I once docked a loaf and it deflated a little but kept deflating, letting out gasses during the bake, a definite bad sign the dough was breaking down. Dough shouldn't ferment that far.  Space about one deep jab every inch alternating into water when needed to prevent sticking.  

metropical's picture
metropical

I'll try the docking method and soak next dough round.  heh heh heh, I kill me!

I'm also thinkig that since my starter takes about 2 hrs to double, perhaps a 2 hr dough rise (or less) might be better.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

one thing at a time per bake.

Too many changes in one bake makes problems or improvements difficult to pinpoint.

metropical's picture
metropical

yup, drop the extra gluten and perhaps docking, depending

metropical's picture
metropical

dropped the gluten/Vit C.

Increased the salt to 3tsp. 

Increased barley malt powder 2 2tsp.

Definitely better, but there is still that proofing timing issue that is so hard.  But the last 2 since this post have definitely been better, no splits.
I'm gonna drop back to 1 tsp barley malt powder.
I think that some of the issue is how the sponge wakes up.  It varies (duh!) depending on temp and humidity.  It's very different now that cold has come here.

Thanks for the input MiniOven.