October 4, 2018 - 12:47pm
Overproved nightmare!
well this week I learned a big lesson about leaving the house when dough is proving in the conservatory. What was originally a dull, yet pleasantly warm day quickly turned into an absolute scorcher and in just an hour my dough was ruined! My stretch and folds were almost impossible due to the fact that (I think) the gluten was completely broken down (is that what happens?)
i baked it anyway and the results were flavoursome (first time adding spelt into the equation) but there was very little rise and they should’ve been at least 60 - 70% larger!
needless to say, whilst the crust was tasty the centre of the dough was hard work!
anyway, lesson learned....hopefully this weekend is more successful!
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those look darn good! You still got decent oven spring!
Absolutely, I think the oven certainly saved me a little bit there!
Doughs to turn out like that. Heck... I'd settle for all my perfectly fermented doughs to turn out this good.
I must say I was surprised at how pleasing to the eye they turned out....but there’s no escaping the fact that neither of them were that enjoyable to eat.....claggy is the best way to describe the crumb! Thanks for our kind words though :-)
They look great to me and still oven spring there...you are being hard on yourself, I think...
Maybe so! Here’s hoping tomorrow’s attempts look just as good as these but with the crumb to go with the appearance!
You can save the overproofed dough by punching it down again and letting it rise to proper amount.
https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2018/02/21/over-proofed-dough/
https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/5679-saving-overproofed-dough
That is good to know thanks....i’ll Give those a good read when I’m on my train this evening!
and then forgetting all about it some more and leaving it on the counter overnight, producing something like a hot air balloon. I’ve overptoofed doughs in one Big Bang via plain forgetfulness and I’ve overproofed ‘em more slowly in the fridge through dedicated neglect and procrastination. My latest way to use the strengthless but flavorful dough that results is to jam it into a buttered cast iron pan and make deep dish pizza. Baking some less drastically but still significantly overproofed boules has yielded some shrunken and chewy/too firm/hard too soon breads.
Yeah I think that’s the best way of describing them really - they certainly got hard too soon and were chewy as hell....not the most enjoyable dining experience for sure!
some of the crusts for "Altus" recycling it as a flavour additive in future loaves. Mmmmmm!
Must remember to do that at some point!
says it was not overproofed. Let that one sink in. :)
Lightsofroy, do you have crumb shots? I just saw this post, so I’m late to the party. I really don’t think your breads are over-proofed. It may or may not have gone past optimum proof, but I see no indication of over-proofing. I would really like to see the crumb, though.
IMO, an over-proofed dough has exhausted all (or most) of the yeast. Your loaves both exhibit nice bloom. I don’t think it is possible to get ears on an over-proofed dough.
Please explain what you meant by “ the center of the dough was hard work”.
IMPORTANT - you mentioned using spelt for the first time. You may not be aware, but spelt is notorious for making a dough extremely extensible (easily stretched and feels weak). Even a small portion of spelt will have a definite affect on any dough.
I urge others that may disagree to reply. I am always willing to learn, but I don’t think the advice is wrong.
If you haven’t seen this post, you may find something helpful. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/57309/experiment-learn-under-and-overproofed-dough
HTH
Dan
thanks for the advice....you’re probably right....I’m still trying to figure out some of the basics here and obviously some way away from being able to label some of the issues! So all help gratefully received. For some reason I don’t have a crumb shot of these two but if I could describe it I would say that the whole loaf was very dense with a very tight crumb, especially so right at the base of the loaf. Interestingly I had a similar thing happen to me when I baked last night except everything felt pretty good about the process, I just didn’t get much rise in the oven. Again though, I used a bit of spelt in the bake. This time my proportions were 50g wholemeal rye, 50g white spet, 150g strong bread flour and 275ml warm water (levain) and then 300g of strong bread flour into that after the levain sat overnight for about 16hrs. The only other ingredients are 10g salt (added in the morning with the 300g flour) and 1 tbsp olive oil.
In terms of schedule, I made the dough and kneaded for about 8 minutes, then left it covered with cling film and a bit of olive oil for 6hrs. Then stretch and fold, left for 3hrs, S&F, 45mins, S&F, 45mIns, S&F, 30mins, then pre shape, sit for 20mins, then shape, into bannetons and sit for a further 45mins. Then bake for 20mins @240 Celsius and 25mins @ 200. Steam in the oven etc etc
I did feel that I didn’t seem to get much rise after the 2nd S&F and ultimately not much increase in size in the banneton. Should I have left it longer still?
it was a pretty cold day in England so should I have given more time?
looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
cheers
alex
Alex, “50g wholemeal rye, 50g white spet, 150g strong bread flour and 275ml warm water (levain) and then 300g of strong bread flour into that after the levain sat overnight for about 16hrs.“
An issue that is seldom (if ever) discussed is the activity and strength of the starter. That, coupled with 20% whole rye could cause an active starter to over ferment and break down, UNLESS the ambient temp was very cool. On top of that warm water was used in a wet (110% hydration). Wet and warm cause starters to mature faster. Starters are unique, unlike commercial yeast which is highly predictable.
I am wondering if your starter didn’t over ferment. The stater contained 45% of the total flour, meaning that the quality of your starter will have a great affect on the dough.
Without knowing more, this is only a guess.
Alex , do you have experience baking sourdough or are you just starting out? Try to document your bakes with images if possible. The more info we get, the better the help we are able to provide.
Let me know what you think.
Dan
I neglected to mention that 150ml of my active starter went in to the levain as well! I do actually take photos as well....for some reason my iPhone doesn’t let me upload them, it crashes every time! I did however forget the crumb shot on this pair. I’ve just managed to add the photo below of the log I just described
I’ve only just started on my sourdough journey, maybe the last 2 or 3 months....oddly I started quite well....just seem to have had a disappointing recent run
Your bread held it’s shape well. I don’t think your dough degraded. The bread baked up nicely.
How would you describe the activity of your starter? Tell us about it. How often fed, what proportions is it fed with. What temps is it kept at. How long to rise? High high does it rise?
A lot of questions, but the answers may help.
You mentioned that you started out well. Are you baking a different bread from the successful bakes?
Dan
So, my starter is fed twice a day, approx every 12hrs with about 150ml of water and 120g of flour. To be honest I do this by eye rather than measuring and aim for a consistent consistency of thick paint more than anything else
I have been using wholemeal rye in my starter for the last 2 months after I read somewhere that it was a good one to use (advice?)
over the 12hr period it tends to double in size, reaching the top of the bowl I keep it in and when I come to feed it, it is usually still at the top with lots of bubbles. I also cover with clingfilm, not quite sealed all the way around but near enough.
for context, I fed it 2 hrs ago and it has risen by around 25% though doesn’t look particularly bubbly yet, just swollen
temperature is inconsistent. When I was having more successful bakes it was summer with a very warm kitchen (25 degrees or more maybe). it’s now autumn and it’s 19 degrees according to the thermostat but feels colder. I certainly don’t have an ideal proving location today
the only other difference with my successful bakes was that I didn’t add any rye or spelt into the dough (except for the rye in my starter). Could it just be this?
When I say successful, I still haven’t had a loaf with a great crumb....so perhaps it is that my starter isn’t being used optimally
I don’t have experience with keeping a wet starter. Hopefully others that do will add to the conversation. 19C is pretty cold for a starter, IMO. But it seems to be growing.
Would you want to consider a basic formula/method for a test loaf? It is the most successful formula that I know of. See it HERE.
We are presently featuring a Community Bake celebarting the tenth anniversay of the 123 SD. A lot a bakers are getting wild and crazy with it, but it is a good bread without the addins. Take a look at the Community Bake.
HTH
Dan
ive had another failed attempt in the last 24hrs so I think it’s time to go back to the drawing board and follow the 123 method and take things from there. I also wonder whether I should build a new starter from scratch and see whether that has an impact in general. I’ve seen a few other posts on the forum about starter advice so i’ll dig one out and have a look.
can I just check what you mean when you say that you don’t have experience keeping a wet starter? What is it that you do differently? Is this the difference between keeping a starter and a leaving on the go? I think I’ve seen that referenced a few times
thanks
alex
Alex, lots of people keep a 100% (wet) starter with great success. I happen to keep mine @ 60%. If your starter is healthy you change change the hydration at any time if you wish.
I have an idea to test your starter. Take 10g starter +20g water + 30g flour and thoroughly mix together. The idea here is to make a test dough modeled on the 123 SD formula. You can leave out the salt for this test. Knead it anyway you choose until the dough is resilent and the gluten has been developed. Place the dough ball in a straight sided clear glass, one that is preferably narrow and tall. Cover the glass with plastic wrap and seal that with a rubber band. Estimate where the dough level would be if it was liquid and mark that level on the glass with a marker. NOTE - markers can be easily scrubbed off the glass with any scrubbing pad. If you have time, mark the level on the glass every hour or two. To speed things up, place the test dough in a warm place; in microwave with a hot cup of water for warmth and humidity. Maybe in your oven with the light left on. Shoot for between 78F (25C) and 82F (28C). If you, can take pictures, that would be helpful. Continue monitoring and photographing until the dough starts to fall back and recede. I estimate a time investment of between 6 - 10 hours.
If you are willing to perform this test, we will have an excellent idea of your starter’s performance. Many people throw away perfectly good starters because they lose faith in them. Keep the faith a little longer”...
Dan