The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough bread fail

phil's picture
phil

Sourdough bread fail

Hi, I'm new to this forum but I've been closely following all the topics trying to figure out what went wrong during my baking process, to start I have to mention that I live in Canada, I know big part of the baking process is dependable on the different kinds of flour and it's origin. I recently attempted to bake sourdough bread, I followed one of the guides on how to create my own sourdough starter at home written by Maurizio Leo on he's website, it came out great. My sourdough starter is really lovely and bubbly and I can see a lot of activity. When my starter was ready I attempted to bake a loaf of bread following one of he's beginner sourdough bread recipes, unfortunately my dough came out as a sticky mess, I followed the recipe step by step reading it over many times. At this point I'm during the stage where I really want to give up, every attempt is a failure, below I will post the guides I used in my baking process, any help would be appreciated. Maybe there's a bread recipe that works for our Canadian flour best?

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

so I don’t think it is the flour (as long as you are using all purpose or bread flour). If you give us your process and some pictures, we will probably figure out what is going wrong. There are too many variables for us to start guessing. 

phil's picture
phil

Well, I didn't manage to take any pictures but I can sure describe the process. It is pretty much step by step followed just like on the website I posted under my first post. My problem is that after the mix part showed on the website my dough is unmanageable to work with, at this point I don't give up and I still work with the dough, I leave it for the bulk fermentation process, during that stage I come back to it every half an hour trying to fold it for the first hour and a half so basically 3 folds then I let it sit for the remaining of the time, once I get to the preshape point my dough is very sticky and messy, it looks more like autolyse process.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

and for a beginner, 76% hydration is kind of high. Try cutting back some of the water if you really want to follow that particular recipe. 

My suggestion would be to do a search on a simple 1-2-3 sourdough recipe on this site and start with that. The hydration of that dough is 71.4%. It doesn’t sound like 5% would be a lot but it really is when dealing with dough. 

The other question I have is what was your room temperature? If it isn’t the same, then your dough won’t behave the same. Hotter temps make things move much faster. That’s why we say to watch the dough and not the clock. Unfortunately, that comment doesn’t help much when you aren’t sure what to look for and only experience will teach you that. Youtube videos will help though. 

phil's picture
phil

Well, my room temperature doesn't matter at this point, I'm using sourdough starter and dough proffer by brod and taylor so I can set it to pretty much any temp. I want, in this case I was following the temp. from the guide. I tried to lower the hydration by 5% already, it was really dry to a point where it wouldn't absorbe the flour that I was supposed to use in the recipe. Not sure what the problem is here. I use all the water in the recipe and my dough is really messy and sticky, I lower it and I can't even get all the flour worked into the dough.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I do all my dough by hand and sometimes it takes a bit for the flour to take up the water. If you need more, only add 10 g at a time. You just need to get all the flour wet, not soupy. The autolyse will soften the dough further. 

ETA Okay, I looked a lot more carefully at the recipe. It is a good solid recipe. The one thing that I learned in baking bread is that the one thing you can adjust as needed is the amount of water. Start out being conservative and if you need more, then put it in. You can always add water but you can’t take it out if you put in too much. In your case, you made one batch with 5% less but it was too dry. So add 10 g and keep adding (keep track of what you add do you know for next time) until you are able to get that flour hydrated to a shaggy mass. Different flours, even the same brand but different bags, will need different amounts of water. The rest of the ingredients may be written in stone but not the water. Hopefully this fixes the issue. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

If it is hydration then try going to 65-70% hydration. Start off at 65% for the autolyse and keep that extra 5% to one side which may be added later with the salt if you think the dough knead it and you can handle it. Don't try anything fancy either. Knead till full gluten formation and then let it bulk ferment. You may add in some stretch and folds if you wish. See if that helps.

phil's picture
phil

As for the flour, what do you guys mean by bread flour? Will any high gluten flour work or are we talking about specific one? I'm using Robin Hood Homestyle White which apparently is the best for bread, at least that's what their pwcksgipa says 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Just looked it up and It has enough protein in it. I think go low(er) with the hydration till you get a feel for it and then slowly increase the hydration the better you're able to handle it.

Just had a look at the drop down ingredients box - expecting to find just wheat but there was an option to check - and found this...

Wheat flour, amylase, xylanase, ascorbic acid, niacin, iron, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, l-cysteine, folic acid.

While this will have nothing to do with your issues but talking about adulterated flour.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

in terms of those additives. They are mandated by the Canadian government. 

“Canadian Requirements

The standard for flour (also known as "white flour", "enriched flour" or "enriched white flour") in the FDR requires the mandatory addition of thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, folic acid and iron. The addition of vitamin B6, pantothenic acid, magnesium and calcium is optional. All white flour sold in Canada for food use, whether for use in further manufacturing or for sale directly to the consumer, must be enriched. “

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

We too have enriched flour. I think it's mandatory here too, in the UK. Although I'm sure I've seen 100% wheat as well unless I've imagined it. We cannot get bleached as that is banned.

However our enriched flour just has the vitamins and iron. I've never seen the amylase, xylanase, ascorbic acid (unless it's one of those self raising flours) and L-Cysteine. That's new to me.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

And it is labeled no additives (aside from what is mandated). The flour above does seem to have a few extras. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Typical of the flour we get here. Some extra vitamins is no problem. 

JeremyCherfas's picture
JeremyCherfas

Those chemicals are among the many dough "improvers" used in industrial baking.

albacore's picture
albacore

L-Cysteine (E920) is an amino acid used as a flour improver that improves the extensibility of dough. It is often used commercially to more or less eliminate bulk fermentation completely. Also a component of specific pizza yeast to make those pies easy to stretch.

One of its main sources has a touch of macabre - it is often extracted from human hair, athough there are plant based versions available. Warburtons (a large Chorleywood baker in the UK) state that they only use the plant based version - not sure about others.

Xylanase is an enzyme that chomps up xylans - long chain polysacharrides based on multiple 5 carbon ring molecules. it probably works a bit like amylases chomping starch which is chains based on 6 carbon ring molecules, eg glucose, fructose.

Lance

pmccool's picture
pmccool

One of those is via malt, more often barley malt than wheat or rye.  Or it can be derived from other sources.  Regardless of source, it has the same function: breaking some of the starch down into simpler sugars.

From my limited reading, xylanase improves the bread's crumb structure and lengthens shelf life.  Not sure that I need or want that for my personal baking.

Ascorbic acid is Vitamin C and it's effects on bread are well documented.

Paul

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I'm if the same opinion. I figured out there was such a purpose for all these things but I like to work with flour and water as much as possible. Like to think the rest comes from me and my ability. There's lots of articles here at the moment that these improvers shouldn't be added to these so called artisanal sourdough breads. They're one step away from adding yeast. 

treesparrow's picture
treesparrow

Phil, have a look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dUZ0O-Wv0Q

I found this video very helpful. You can see how very sticky the dough is at first, and even later on in the process it will still stick if handled too hard. I watched it several times before trying it out and it was probably the one video that helped me most in the beginning, and kept me from giving up. Hang in there, it's so worth it!

tsp

phil's picture
phil

So as for the hydration, I would only lower the amount of water used in mixing and the levain stays same correct?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Keep the levain the same and only add in as much water as you're happy with in the main dough. 

phil's picture
phil

Also how do I calculate hydration?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

by the total amount of flour. Don’t forget to include the amounts in the Levain which would be 50/50 if you are using a 100% Levain. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Formula:

  • 748g bread flour
  • 110g whole wheat flour
  • 49g dark rye flour
  • 691g water
  • 18g fine sea salt
  • 184g mature levain (92g water + 92g flour)

Total Flour: 999g

Total Water: 783g

Hydration = 78.38% (783 / 999 x 100)

 

So you've got quite a high proportion of wholegrain in there. So I suggest maybe autolyse at 70% hydration (rather than the 65% I originally said when I thought simple sourdough was mostly bread flour) and keep the extra water to one side which you can add later if you think it needs it.

70% of 999g = 699g water of which 92g goes into the levain. So the additional water for the main dough will be 607g (with 84g leftover). So re-write the recipe like so...

Formula:

  • 748g bread flour
  • 110g whole wheat flour
  • 50g dark rye flour
  • 608g water (+80g)
  • 18g fine sea salt
  • 184g mature levain (92g water + 92g flour)

I have added a gram of rye flour and adjusted the hydration so the autolyse is exactly 70% hydration and the additional water will make it exactly 78% hydration. Nice whole numbers here with only 1g difference in the flour.

Total Flour: 1000g (100%)

Total Water: 700g + 80g with the extra water (70% - 78%)

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

but i would really hold back on that extra 80 g unless you really need it. Sounds like 78% was too much for you to handle so just add enough of that 80 g until the flour is all hydrated. 

phil's picture
phil

Thank you so much for explaining this, it makes so much more sense now. I will give it a try this weekend and I will post the results. You guys are great.

phil's picture
phil

As for the levain, do I still go of the recipe on the website there? I believe it's a bit different 

phil's picture
phil

Or do I mix 46g of starter with 46g of whole wheat flour, 46g bread flour and 92g of water in this case?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

you follow the recipe for now. 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I haven't changed the levain. Just showing you how much water and flour is in the levain. Build exactly like the website. He just builds extra and uses 184g which is 92g water and 92g flour. 

phil's picture
phil
  1. Also, I was wondering, I have another starter recipe I would like to try, in the recipe it's says to feed it and leave it overnight, do they mean leave it for 24hr or 12hr? The recipe is a wholemeal sourdough starter 
Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

a wholemeal sourdough starter? Are you still at the starter building stage or do you mean a wholemeal sourdough recipe? 

Can you post a link to the recipe? 

phil's picture
phil

I'm just experimenting with another starter on a side, here's the recipe 

https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/

What I don't understand is the feeding schedule, by feed and leave overnight do they mean leave it for 24h or 12h before next feeding. It says day 1 - day 7, feed and leave overnight, that would mean feed only once a day but from my experience that wouldn't be enough, correct?

 

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

As it says Day 1, Day 2 etc. 

It's very regimented and I'm thinking you'll need to watch the starter more than counting the days and "welcoming" a new starter on day 7. 

Once every 24 hours is fine but it depends on what stage it's at, how much it has been fed, temperature etc. It might need 12 hourly feeds or indeed one would probably have to skip a feed or two.