The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Real Jewish Rye Tangzhung / Aoutoyse methods.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Real Jewish Rye Tangzhung / Aoutoyse methods.

I am experimenting with Jewish rye. Here we are one hour into the rest period. I wrote the rough draft for this formula last year, when I baked the bead bible formula verbatim.  I don't exactly remember why I settled on only 3% Tangzhung. Everything I see now says 5%-10% of the total flour is recommended. Oh well. Any comments or recommendations on the processes thus far are very welcome.

Sponge/flour mixture/Tangzhung @ 1hr.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

JDR would usually have 30-40%, I prefer 40%, rye flour in it.  20% is considered a light rye and this is even less than than that at 16.5 % rye.  I would call this a light caraway bread instead.  The caraway should be around 2-3% minimum as well.  It should still be a good tasting bread though but ,with 63% hydration and all that bread flour, it will be pretty dense I would think. I also think it should be made as a sourdough bread as well.

If you type Jewish Deli Rye in the search box on this site you will get a gazillion JDR recipes that are better than thos one.  I like Eric's Favorite Rye for a good basic one by Eric Hanner or Tzitzel by Varda that may not show up on the list.

Happy JDR baking

Happy baking

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

At the result from my last attempt at this same basic formula. Not a bad result at all. This from what I understand is in fact a Eastern European rye brought to N.Y.C. by Polish emigrants.  https://goodcookingfortheheartandsoul.blogspot.com/2017/09/rose-levy-beranbaums-nyc-deli-jewish.html

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I'm with you all the way - Pie is King! But I don't see a recipe for the bread on the linked site

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

That's strange, the link takes me right to the recipe. scroll down a bit.  Anyway the loaf is looking fine!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but no recipe!  

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

That is because I followed Rose Levy Beranbaum's recipe word for word for that bake. It is not polite to post other peoples recipes without permission. This time around I am confident that I can call this recipe my own.

(With acknowledgment.) Smile. Her recipe is around the web. Buy her book, The bread Bible, worth every penny!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Our very own Elgins, gives a very plausible explanation as to why New York rye's are so low in actual rye flour. If you have not already check it out; worth your time to be sure! https://youtu.be/QuOv-v8h1L0 Stan is not only one the quintessential authorities on rye breads, he is very gregarious and a pleasure to know.

 

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

the JDR he grew up with, and the one I first experienced 35 years ago, had 35-40% rye in it.  But, the bread that is being passed off today as JDR that has 10-20% rye in it, is not at all the same thing and is really a light rye bread.  The one you are making is 16.5% rye and a light rye bread and not a 35-40% rye traditional JDR that we all know so well.  There is nothing wrong with a light rye bread but it can't be passed of a traditional JDR bread to those that know better.

Ithink if you bake Stan and Norm's Old School Jewish Rye Bread from their book Inside the Jewish Bakery, that will get you very close to the bread that Stan talks about in your link that he grew up with.  If you bake it with the Tzitzel twist on page 74 that should get you close to the JDR that I first ate 35 years ago.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Personally, I am not a purest. This is the Jewish rye sandwich / toast bread I grew up with.  Roses is formula comes close to this. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

sells it for $11.99 and $3 shipping :-) I think I will get it at Walmart!

No wonder you liked Roses recipe - it was what you grew up with!  It was Rose's recipe from the Bread Bible - Levy's Jewish Rye Bread - 2003  Where she recreated the original with permission.

http://breadbasketcase.blogspot.com/2010/05/levys-real-jewish-rye-bread.html

No Tang Zhong in the original though

Still a light rye though :-)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:).  Can be anywhere from 1 to 10% but most common at 5% of total flour.  

If looking for more information on Tangzhong it may help to spell with an "o."

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I think the addition of stickiness is why I settled at 3%. Almost home! I have to admit I am excited! Oven is in pre-heat mode, bread is shaped and asleep for the proofing.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Tomorrow I will have an in depth look at this formula in my blog. Meanwhile, now to wait out the cooling to check on the crumb. I believe a trip to the deli is in my future to pick up some pastrami!

 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

contains diastase which could be in conflict with the Tangzhong.  Both have similar effects on the dough crumb when there is too much included.  Too much of a good thing?  So if you find the crumb too gummy, you might want to eliminate one or the other or heat the honey to render it inert.  Just a heads up.  :)

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I had the first two slices with American cheese, not bad at all. Today pastrami on rye is on the menu! If my feet are up to I am going to take a walk to the Lower east side for the sandwich meat.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Especially with the kraut and mustard!  I can taste it in my dreams:-)  Rye is such a great flour and so versatile.  Here is one of the best of all the posts ever made on TFL in my book.  It has about the same amount of rye as yours in a SD but wetter with different procedures but the bread is totally different!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5500/pierre-nury%E2%80%99s-rustic-light-rye-leader

Happy rye baking

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I unknowingly used turkey pastrami for that sandwich. Well you know I just had to do it over with real beef pastrami! Still not the very best avaliable around NYC. But the beef pastrami was far better than the turkey! My next bake is going to be the %50 rye salty rolls from "The rye baker". I can't believe how much trouble I am having finding a simplie small bag of medium rye flour in my neck of Manhattan. I do enjoy Rose's light rye bread. Truth be told I do not think the Tangzhung improved on the original all that much.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

take on Levy's is better than the original too!  The rolls should b grand!  Don't forget Salted Rye Chocolate Cookies.  These are really good!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/36174/chocolate-salted-rye-cookies

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I seem to find that Tangzhong makes more of a difference with shorter ferments.  I think the benefits of the gel breaks down with time.  Try moving the Tangzhong directly to the main dough mix when cooled down.  See if it makes a bigger difference.  It should render the dough less sticky.

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

Could someone explain the benefit of using rye flour in a tzanghong?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and what happens to starch (carbohydrate) not gluten (protein.). So basically any starchy flour will do.

Someone else will have to explain the conversion of starch molecules to sugar but to me, a rye tangzhong will taste sweeter than a wheat one.

Mini

Truth Serum's picture
Truth Serum

perfect explanation!