The holy grail of consistency.....Champlain hydration 70%
Isn't it funny how goals change depending on where you are on your journey?
Firstly, Open crumb as a keen and quite naive beginner in October was top of the list...quickly followed by 'scoring'...oh those elusive ears in my overproofed loaves in the warm fridge phase...
Then, a new oven and a new wine cooler...everything changes again!!!!!
So, now with things being a bit 'settled' I aim to have a number of formulas that I know so well that I can 'read the dough' and get a sort of reliable 'good' result... I seem to be getting there with the Champlain....
Oh you baked it often enough I hear groans across TFL!!!!!!
Keeping a close eye on what the dough is supposed to look like coming out of the wine cooler. I set it to 4C for 10 hours and the loaves temp was 7.5C in the morning...happy with the result...
Also, interesting what shape of banneton produce what shape of loaf or open crumbness...another thing to think about....
Crumb of 'chubby' one in smaller but deeper cane banetton...
Batard crumb in longer oval brotform...
Scoring....before going into oven..sorry blurred as hands were still shaking!!!
If the right spot for retarding is hit the loaf seems to come off the banneton but still have tenseness...The way the score opens also gives an indication of 'readiness', I think...not much opening...sign of being a bit under or much under....too wide opening too quick...tendency direction overprooved....
I really would like to hear what you all think about the 'feel' of your retarded loaves to judge the spot?
Comments
it's amazing how dialed in you become after enough repetition. These are mighty fine and only due to get even better - well done !
the nature of the game seems to be two step back one forward and what a happy dance it is!
Do you have any thoughts on how you judge the readiness of your retarded loaves and what signs to look for rather the clock?
At the moment I use a 'positive' loaf as a signpost and then change timings with the same temp and see from there.... Kat
Consider how many loaves pros bake - squillions and that's half the reason the turn out consistent shapes and scores effortlessly. I've mentioned before that worked in pizzaria (my brothers as well) and it's kind of a crack up teaching someone to toss a pie when you can do it without effort - that's a testament to repetition and especially repetition under pressure where you have to make 250 bases before X;00am. Things like poke testing and window pane etc all seem more ritual and secondary to just knowing what to expect at each stage - it just clicks at some point and judging from this post it sounds like you had the moment of the almighty 'click'
Can't tell if it has blisters, did you spritz them, for the 3B's but bloom and bold are there and the crumb is a great OSM for sure. This one you have down pat. Nice and it has to taste just as good. Well done and
Happy Baking
as I still worry that they may deflate....'overproofed loaf' paranoia as I call it....
Ha, Ha 'to have a loaf down a pat' does not exist in sourdough land and is a dangerous concept!!!
Barney had his summer haircut yesterday and was not impressed with me! He says lucky Lucy does not need hair cuts like 'Schnitzel Von Krumm' from his favourite book 'Hairy Mclary' crew..........
lot....
since Lucy is a long haired Doxie and this is AZ she get a buzz cut shave at the start of Summer and then it grows out for our horribly cold, at least for us, 65 F Winters. 115 F yesterday, hotter tomorrow. maybe 118 F. It thundered, for Monsoon, this morning at 7 AM, but no rain and now the sun it out...yikes!
The crumb always looks fantastic; open, soft and light!
and consistent with this method...the cold bulk fermentation method for the Champlian led to a 'Fools Crumb' and underfermentation big time.......but feel better after this bake! :D Kat
What can I say... another set of beauties :-))
Exactly what KendalM said, Repetition... And your a repetitious type. I think a great deal of your success can be attributed to your tenatious, focused, and repetitious nature. Knowing how much you’ve worked to succeed, I am careful to mention this. I know how hard to worked to succeed. But when I think of “gifted bakers” you need to be added to the list. Jon Hong, Carl the Pig Farmer, Solano, and Kat! There are undoubtably others but you 4 come to mind. What you 4 have accomplished in such short time rivals the efforts of master bakers that have pursued their craft for years. Maybe you could send me a lock of your hair, and I could put it under my pillow ;-)) God knows, I need all the help I can get. He-he-he
You wrote, “Keeping a close eye on what the dough is supposed to look like coming out of the wine cooler. I set it to 4C for 10 hours and the loaves temp was 7.5C in the morning...happy with the result...”
I am surprised that in 10 hr the loaves where 3.5C above the cooler. Is this the norm?
Accordng to a recent thermal data log, my dough dropped to the set temp in 5 hr. See log. Compact Dough Retarder 7/16/18 https://share.fireboard.io/E32275
If you get a chance, try to check your temps. Take a reading at the beginning and end of both your dough and ambient cooler temps (glass of water). Are your doughs covered and if so, with what? My retarder is humid enough to not need covers, maybe yours is also. Covers, especially plastic bags may hold the heat longer. Just a guess...
Dan
Really, what does it matter? Your breads are gorgeous!
BUT, I bet you are going to want to investigate <LOL>
and you are quite right about the temps...the cooler has me intrigued as when I put water in it or drinks the temp seems to be 1C or sometimes 2C higher depending where the glasses are.... very top of the cooler where the cool air is blown out and where the cooling type of element is at the back seems to be the most accurate and coldest and more warm at the bottom and front where the glass door is....I fear it is going to be never totally accurate as per the thermostat display and this is kind of where I test the times for a certain dough and then go with that depending on result.....UNTIL I will get eventually some sort of proper retarder...there is just not enough space at the moment and other things are happening too....
Your stats are totally amazing! I love the chart with the overview of temperatures and that is great! I know that my dough was after bench rest in the region of 75F and I kind of saw somewhere a post where someone mentioned a Hamelman formula for 15% starter, 2.5 hours bulk at 76F and said that for that formula to allow 2 to 2.5 hours at 76F proofing or at 50F temp proofing at 8hours or more....so got me thinking...near enough...
soooo....from past trials I knew that setting to 4C I will get higher temps but knew that I probably should be ok based on starter percentage and past timings....
Not ideal..but as long as I know what MY settings are and they work it is fine....for the 50/50 for instance I had to cut that time much shorter....to get that 85% rise only....
Good point also about the plastic covers...I might just risk it and do a batch without the covers and see..... I am using the ones that Maurizio also mentions on his web site....
Your data-mining on temperatures is amazing! Kat
Wonderful breads, Kat! I've never tried a champlain, but it's definitely on my list. My last bread is over and these photos made me hungry!
A doubt I have for a while, but since I have not yet followed the temperature of the doughs, I had not stopped to think about it very much, how do you check the dough temperature? I have a thermometer, but I would have to drill the dough with it, which does not sound like a good idea. Or would it be okay?
so much and there is also a brilliant community bake thread on this where Dan, Leslie and many other bakers joined...
It is a super loaf to try as you CAN get open crumb with a lower hydration dough using Trevor's pre-mix method.
Now - depending where you live and temps I have found that the pre-mix with salt degraded my flour in the UK and turned it into soup and for a long period just used a normal auto-lyse and a slightly higher hydration upping it to 75%.
However, I have now a wine cooler and keep the pre-mix at a 10C ish colder temp for 10 hours or so and this makes an amazing soft dough (also considering the small amount of spelt in there and the rye to counterbalance). You can get the dough out of fridge method like Trevor did to get back to room temp and this might work for you as you can set you fridge to a cold 38F...
I am not 'obsessed' with temperatures if they are 1C in or out but I think it is important to get a feel for them as they DO make a difference in my book and just to get an awareness around it.....
I would get one of those infrared guns and they are close enough to measure temps or a thermapen....but to be honest I use my infra red gun more than the therma pen...
There is a lot of experience here about the Champlain so a good bread to try and people will be very happy to help! It is a mild bread but my family really likes it and is part of our day to day bread now.... Kat
I'm in this phase of achieving repeatability too, with a white flour bread and 68% hydration, for now I'll just stay on it, but definitely this formula is at the top of the list of next steps!
I had problems with the pre-mix method too, when it was hot the dough turned a soup, when it was cold it was very difficult to get fermentation, even in the oven. I'll try your hint of cooling the dough.
Infrared gun looks like a great choice, thank you!
having a Brod & Taylor proofer for the winter and it also helps to get the dough back to being warmer. However, if you time carefully when to take the dough out of the fridge then it should ok? You could mix early in the morning and dough goes into fridge ..take it out let's say after 5 hours and then let adjust to room temp and keep an eye on it whilst you are there......after 8 hours pre-mix you should already see the benefit of the pre-mix. I did....Mix levain which already should also warm the dough up, if still on the colder side. You can also retain let's say 10g of water which is warmer and add that with the levain to speed up bringing dough up to target temp of 75F for example...
Add leavain early in the afternoon, bulk 3 1/2 hours, pre-shape, bench rest final shaping and then back into your cold fridge at 38F until the morning.....
Have fun, Katharina
I advise more testing before trusting the Infrared Gun on your dough. I just checked some retarded dough Just now. The IR Gun read 38F and the Thermapen read 43F. I know from data logging the dough temp is 43-44F. To measure with the thermapen I carefully move the dough away from the side of the basket then place the probe along side the dough trying to lightly keep it against the side of the dough and not the basket. I’m not up to stabbing my dough to get the center reading, just yet :(
Dan
thank you Dan....I have used the Thermapen but the sticking the needle feeling in feels odd doesn't it? Kat
thermo are accurate Surface temperature of the Dough coming out if the fridge is 38 F and the dough inside is 42 F. Neither is good at all in doing the others job::-)
Nothing wrong in having favourite recipes to be part of your baking repertoire. I know I'm leaning towards a favourite for this weekends bake.