The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Rate my loaf. First 100% fresh milled whole wheat.

Bigblue's picture
Bigblue

Rate my loaf. First 100% fresh milled whole wheat.

First time baking a 100% fresh milled, 100% whole wheat.

  • Organic Canadian Red Fife whole wheat, ditto for starter with a 3x refresh fed mainly bran/germ.
  • 79% hydr. 
  • 9% prefermented flour, 100% hydr.
  • 40m AL.
  • 7 minutes slap and folds. 4 rounds of bowl folds every 30m during bulk.
  • 2 hour bulk fermented then 15 hour bulk retard @ 4c.
  • 2.5 hour proof at about 21c. 
  • DO preheat 500; baked 20m 470. 20m 435 uncovered.

Tried a bulk retard for the first time. Coated the loaf with sifted bran/germ. Dough definitely collapsed when I put it on the hot DO and I rushed the score. Thought the loaf would surely be super flat. Must have sprung at least 2x even though it's not all that tall. Honestly, I barely taste a difference between this loaf with the 15hr bulk ferment and 100% whole wheat fresh milled vs other loafs I've made with 30% bread flour and 20% rye. Must have blunt taste buds.

Common wisdom is a longer AL and at least 85% hydration with 100% whole wheat fresh milled. But it seemed wet enough. 

I prefer the proof retard simply because the dough is easier to transfer from the banneton to the DO and as long as it's getting a long fermentation, I'd bet I couldn't tell a taste difference between a bulk retard or proof retard.

Questions:

  1. The dough seemed to lack strength when I transferred to DO from banneton so I was curious if I over-fermented or did not develop enough strength during the SL&F of ST&F or bulk. Or maybe it's just the bran cutting the web. Any thoughts? Doesn't look over-fermented given the crumb, crust colour, and that there was some bloom.
  2. Take this same loaf and up the hydration to 90%, what do you think the differences would be in the loaf?
  3. Is anyone proofing in a warm environment of 33c/92f? Would a warmer environment than a 21c room temp aid in gas production outpacing gas loss? 
  4. Should I use a 66% hydration starter as it's thought to aid in final dough strength?
  5. Is the reason for a longer AL for whole grains to soften the bran?
  6. Do you think feeding a starter with sifted bran from week old milled flour would affect either vigor or nutrition of the starter?
  7. When would slap-and-folds be advantageous compared to bowl stretch-and-folds? If a dough will be structurally challenged like fresh-milled 100% whole grain, does vigorous early gluten development make more sense? Are SL&Fs always better than omitting them and doing bowl ST&Fs only?

Thanks for the help!

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

First,  I think the crumb looks fine -  how did it taste?

I can't answer most of your questions, but I have tried refreshing starter at 92 F  ( usually 3 1/2 hours to get airy ) in an attempt to boost the sour flavor of the final dough.

Bigblue's picture
Bigblue

Tasted good :)

franbaker's picture
franbaker

I'm a bread-baking newbie, so I can't answer any of your questions, but your loaf and my "100% whole wheat partial success" loaf were prepared similarly. Your crust is beautiful compared to my paleface!

I also used freshly milled organic Canadian Red Fife (love the flavor of that wheat). My starter had been refreshed 3 or 4 times in and out of frig over a couple of days; started as a rye starter, fed Red Fife. !00% hydration. 50 g of flour in the starter + 500 g of flour added for the dough. About a 50-minute soak (salt included; I think that was a mistake). The final hydration I wound up with was 87%, which I found somewhat difficult to work with. Did about a half hour of slap-and-folds; I only learned to get really vigorous about it near the end of that time. Four rounds of turn-and-folds during 3-hour bulk, no retard (my other eater doesn't like sour bread, and I'm in the process of learning what fermentation looks like as it proceeds). Proof 2.15 hours. Ambient temp 80-82.5 dF throughout process. Dough stuck to banneton liner coming out, had to be peeled off, but I did get oven spring. Baked 450 covered x 25 minutes, 375 uncovered x 20 minutes, internal temp 208. Next time I'll uncover sooner and reduce heat to 425.

Advice I've received includes sifting out the bran and using it in the levain rather than in the final dough mixture, which I do plan to try. Also to autolyze 2-3 hours, leaving the salt out. Start at 80% hydration and work toward 100% if the dough can handle it. That you can do as much kneading as you want in the first half hour after mixing without harming the dough, so just go for it if I want to. Using more rice flour in my banneton, spritzing before covering. Some of this won't apply to you. For the next loaf, I do plan to put the bran in the levain, AL 2-3 hours (without salt!), do my half hour of slap-and-folds as long as the dough seems happy about it, use more rice flour for the proof, spritz, uncover sooner and lower the heat less (will probably also need to take it out of the oven earlier). Sorry for all the repetition, I'm trying to get it all fixed in my brain ;-)

I've been trying to keep the ambient temp from going over 82 dF, because fermentation just seems to move too fast in my kitchen at temps above that. Especially with commercial yeast -- it just goes nuts -- but even with a wild yeast levain. My starters all seem to move really fast. I'm not trying to get sourness, but I'd like to neutralize at least some of the phytic acid in the bran.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I always get a chuckle when a newbie does a white Forkish bread at 78% hydration and can't figure out why their bread fails when they are over fermenting and proofing by a factor of 2 based on time and their temperature  plus they end up with 5 pounds of discard starter:-) 

Remember the rice flour - never ever have anything stick again!

franbaker's picture
franbaker

Also, I've been using flour that I milled from some white rice in my Mockmill 100. Do you think commercial white rice flour like from Bob's Red Mill would be finer/work better?

Yes, at first I overproofed almost everything in my very warm kitchen. I had read that most beginners underproof, so I was determined to avoid that problem. Took me a while to figure out that I was way overcompensating! Not so ambitious that I was trying to do Forkish, though. Started with Peter Reinhart recipes, more beginner-friendly for the average home cook, I think.

I'm happy with the progress I'm making, know that I'll get there eventually. I do like a challenge!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

maintenance since I never do any starter maintenance.  My whole grain rye NMNF starter sits in the fridge for over 20 weeks with no maintenance and if it was just fed bran it would be starving .  Bran is only 20% starch and flour is 70-80% starch and it is the starch that is broken down into the sugars that We beasties can eat.

I am a huge fan of using bran sifted from the whole grains in the dough for feeding the 12 hour nlevain build for a bread.  Bran is tough and hard and it takes a long time to soften and break down and the longer it is wet and under attack by the acids and enzymes in levain, the softer it will be and less likely to cause problems later with the gluten and crumb structure.

If there is a large portion of high extraction flour in the dough then I am also a big fan of a long autolyse of the dough flour and water.   The bran makes up about 12-14% of the whole grain and if that is sifted out to build the levain that leaves 86% extraction flour for the dough.  What the mill calls 'straight flour' is 72% extraction and the patent white flours that we buy are sifted even further to 50-60% extraction.  So if you mill at home or are sifting whole grain flour and getting 20% out to feed the levain you still have an 80% extraction flour that need a long soak during the autolyse to soften it up too. 2 hours is about right for me in Arizona with a 84 F kitchen.  Every 18 F increase in temperature doubles the enzymatic catalyst activity of the autolyse.  So my 2 hour autollyse is like a 6 hour one in Canada, England or Portland.

A 100% whole grain bread like this one needs to go onto the oven at 85% proof maximum.  From the looks of the bloom it looks like it was proofed well over 90%.  The more whole grains the less proof you want.  Knowing when 85% proof is the key to getting it right and this is the hardest thing to know about baking bread.  Since the basket is not a square with straight sides, you can't easily tell proofing percents.  It may only rise an inch in the basket and still be over proofed depending on the basket shape.  Bulk ferment has the same problem if you aren't bulking in a tub.  Tough to tell 100% increase in volume by eye until you get experience.

I had the same problem until I posted a picture on TFL of when it went into the basket and another one when I thought it was at 90%. Mini oven took one look at it and said what a silly boy - that is at least 125%.  Never had  problem after that except for shaped cold retards for proofing in the fridge.  They could over proof while I was sleeping.  Then I found out all you had to do is re-shspe it and proof it again on the counter the next morning and all would be well.

How could that be.  Well many bakers like me now, bulk ferment the dough in a bowl in the fridge overnight and then shape and proof the next day before baking as their regular routine.  So if it over proofs  as a shaped retard all you are doing by re-shaping and proofing is following what other bakers do all the time but without it being in a bowl in the fridge:-)

I believe that slap and folds in the first half hour after final mixing are superior to stretch and folds.  My reasoning is simple.  You can do anything to dough in the first 30 minutes and it is too stupid to know the difference.  The more vigorous slap and fold method develops the gluten faster and too a higher degree that is more easily maintained and increased with stretch and folds for the rest of bulk fermentation.  Gas loss only happens when the gluten is not developed properly.  The main problem with whole grain, flat lovaves at high hydration is improper gluten development and over fermenting and proofing.

Whole grain breads at 100% hydration is the cats meow depending on what the whole grains are in the mix but for red and white wheat it is where you want to eventually get to for bragging rights.  There are a lot of great, whole grain breads at 90% hydration using stretch and folds only that are indistinguishable from 100% hydration ones made with slap and folds in the beginning,

I only use 10 g of 66% hydration NMNF whole grain rye starter to make a loaf of any kind of bread and its hydration means nothing to dough strength since it is only 10 grams.  People get confused in the beginning.  It is acid and salt that generally strengthen gluten,  What low hydration in a much larger levain, not a starter, does in conjunction with low temperatures is force the LAB to produce acetic acid instead if lactic acid.  Lactic acid is the base sour and acetic acid (vinegar) is the 'tang' in sourdough bread.  High temperatures and high hydration put the LAB on steroids production of lactic acid.  So there is more than one way to skin the cat when it comes to more acid and gluten strength.

Bread dough is low hydration at 68% to 78% hydration for the most part and if you retard it in the fridge either bulk, or shaped, it will help force the LAB to make acetic acid so that the tang will be there.  A levain made at 100% hydration at 84 F will put the LAB into lactic acid steroid mode.  That is why you see so many recipes for a wet high temperature levain, high temperature bench work and then a long cold retard to make the very best bread.  You get sour and gluten strength that leads to a great looking, as well as, great tasting bread if it isn't over fermented or over proofed.

Teaching others what you know for free as a gift of true generosity.  Skill will never make you successful but good character will every time.  There are hundreds of good character attributes one needs to succeed in life.  The hardest character attribute to have and hold dear and required for success in all things is .........generosity.

Happy baking and keep those questions coming.    

franbaker's picture
franbaker

They really help. You're a sweetheart!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

apprentice 2nd class yous would not think so.  You would call me master, even though I am not,  and eat dog for for every meal like Lucy does-).  You are too kind if there is such a thing Fran.