Trevor J Wilson Academics Please Respond
Hello,
Recently, I switched from using the methods of Maurizio Leo to those of Trevor J. Wilson. Why? Because, I never could get really good crust from Maurizio's method. The dough spread out too much and was too hard to control to use the dutch oven, and was too wet to score really well.
Now, I'm getting better looking loaves with Trevor's methods, but the crumb is not what I am used to with the higher hydrations. I see Trevor's videos and he is getting great open crumb with his 70%(Champlaigne) dough. Am I not getting that because I am not gentle enough during S/Fs or shaping?
Anyone who has used the Trevor J. Method before, let me know if you were able to get that nice open crumb like he gets on his videos, and what was your breakthrough to let you do that. Thanks!
That is a great question. Many have undertaken the goal to produce extremely open crumb. It is a real challenge and it seems only the tenacious find that happy ending. My personal reason for this pursuit was not to make bread for the every day sandwich. I chased the lofty goal because it was difficult, not to mention the gawking and admiration adorned by others. Let’s face it, the crumb shots evoke emotions.
Some, a very few, achieve the crumb without grueling effort, most struggle. But I think everyone that has learned to consistently produce open crumb had an ah-ha moment when things fell into place.
I wouldn’t want you to know how many times I failed. It might discourage you. In the end, what worked for me was this. Before I placed the shaped dough into the refrigerator, I proofed it on the counter until it was about 75% done proofing. Since my refrigerator is very cold the bread didn’t continue to rise. After 12 - 24 hours it was removed, scored, and baked under a covered roaster as is normal on this site.
By-the-way. It didn’t come easy for me. BUT, the harder you labor, the SWEETER the success!
Dan
Thanks Dan,
I notice that many bakers that produce the open crumb I desire use the fridge, Maurizio included (is that his recipe in your picture? If so, flawlessly executed!) I don't use the fridge because I notice my breads don't seem to rise as well when I do, but maybe that is because I bake the bread cold instead of letting it warm up.
What is it about the fridge, do you think, that makes this open structure appear?
at making 123 bread the Lucy way here He changed it a bit for try 2 and 3 but there are all on the thread below. He was gong for sour and got holes:-) It is a great looking bread
3rd bake of Dab’s Sourdough
The bread pictured above was made using dabrownman’s sourdough recipe. But as BikeProf mentioned, it it not the recipe, it is the baker.
Dough doesn’t rise in my refrigerator either. If the frig is kept around 38F or so, your dough won’t rise and this is to be expected. NOTE; if your frig is maybe 40F or above you may see some rise in the dough.
You ask, how does the frig help with open crumb. I’ll tell you what I THINK I know. If I mis-state, hopefully someone else will correct. Hot gas expands and cold gas contracts. When a dough is put into the refrigerator, the gases within the dough will be warmer than the cold air surrounding it. As the dough starts the cooling process the gas pressure inside the dough lessens. Fermentation continues, but at a reduced rate. Since the pockets have less pressure there is room for additional gas, without any (or little) increase in the volume of the dough. - - - I have also read the CO2 is absorbed into the dough during retardation. But I have no idea how this works. I hope that someone will either confirm or refute these statements. I also am interested to learn more about this.
Back to the bake. Your dough has been retarded for X amount of hours. The oven has been preheated. Now the dough is removed from the refrigerator, and immediately it is scored and placed into the oven. It is obvious that the cold gases within the dough will begin to warm and finally obtain high heat. Since hot air expands where will it go? If the gluten structure is sufficient to contain the increasing gas pressure, the pockets within the dough have no choice but to expand. As the pockets enlarge so must the dough. The end result - open crumb, higher rise (oven spring), greater bloom as the score expands.
- OK, I put myself out there. I did say this is what I think I know. The purpose of this reply is primarily to start a conversation on the subject in order to get to the truth of the matter.
It’s not our opinions, or beliefs that really matter. To advance as best we can, pride and prejudice must be pushed aside. It is the truth that matters; “the truth shall set you free”.
I am eager to learn from the feedback to this post.
Dan
Without seeing what you are doing, it is really difficult to say what explains your results.
And while I know Trevor is very vocal about the importance of dough handling and has lots of shaping videos (and his results support all that), the class I recently took with D. Wink and Karen Bornarth included the claim that fermentation is what creates your crumb structure, and shaping is not that important (not to say that the latter doesn't matter at all). Karen, who said it, has not only baked professionally for many years, but has done a lot of training of other bakers, and she stood quite firmly behind it (and I think Trevor also does discuss how critically important it is too, despite being known for his treatment of dough handling).
I was a bit floored by that claim at first, but then I thought back through that course and my previous 3 week-long courses at SFBI, and it was pretty amazing that we had people of all levels of skill and experience, including some who had never made bread, and generally, the bread was pretty consistently great across the board...hmmm...how could that be?
In the end, I think everything matters, and folks like Chad Robertson have raised the bar by having everything meticulously dialed in and executed at a high level despite challenging formulas...the same goes for Maurizio...really beautiful work. I remain pretty focused on dough handling, and particularly shaping, and am curious as to why I (and many others I know) tend to place so much emphasis on it. I think it is because it is one of the more discrete 'performances' in the process (scoring is up there too) that is clearly linked to a final outcome - a loaf of bread. When do you ever watch another baker and think "Nice work timing the bulk fermentation...amazing skill there"?
I imagine you might get more non-answers like this...my best advice is simply practicing and being observant and patient (and those SFBI courses don't hurt either, but they are a bit spendy)...and posting well annotated pictures and questions here for feedback...
I think Trevor nailed it when he said, “80% of Open Crumb is fermentation and handling”.
The point Prof made about fermentation is well stated. I think we focus more on handling because we are actually participating in the process. Our hands are touching the dough. Not so much with fermentation...
Fermentation cries out for patience and observation. We don’t get to participate much in the process :(
Dan
My method is that I watched Trevor Wilson's videos obsessively until I figured out exactly what he was doing with his hands at every stage, then tried to mimic it the best I could. He is still better. His mixing is better, because the dough just smooths out so well for him, and his shaping is better, but I still get a smooth dough and a nice shape, nice gringe. So I believe you about fermentation creating open crumb. I think the good shaping makes better oven spring (maybe) and a more beautiful bread.
So I guess the question is, how would you advise I alter my fermentation? At the moment, I am doing the Trevor timescale, which is a 6 hour bulk. My apartment stays in the 78-82F temperature range. At the end of bulk, before the preshape, the dough feels soft and full of air. It starts to get that way around hour 5. Preshape, rest 30min, shape, proof 2-3 hours (2 gives best oven spring), bake at 500 for 15 min in dutch oven, 15 on steel. Here are my results:
The first 2 pics are the 'Champlain Sourdough' recipe/method, the second 2, the 'Tartine bread' recipe. As you can see, neither is as open as he gets them, but the Tartine, which is supposed to be very open is less open than the Champlain. Looking at the bread, anyone have any thoughts on what is going wrong?
Thanks
I don't think anything is going wrong with those breads. They look great.
As for altering fermentation, you have to experiment, mostly with time, and simply get better at judging what is needed for each dough.
You have noticed that Trevor is 'better' at mixing because his dough gets more smooth. This is what I consider an under-appreciated point in the age of no-knead, extra gentle strategies. He is putting in some work to get his dough to that point (and/or giving it lots of time), and that development provides greater air trapping ability. Are you following is overnight 'autolyse'?
Yes.
I am reading Trevor J's book now "Open Crumb Mastery". I'm going to get my starter in premier fighting shape, then try some loaves, see if I can't get that open crumb I'm looking for.
Thanks for all of your advice!
I just always end up with a relatively flat loaf. Crumb is ok but not what I expected. I suspect it is the Spelt/rye % combo. I was getting really frustrated so have walked away from this bread. My confidence was at very low ebb. Since then I have been baking more with wholewheat and rye and have had reasonable success again, I think I learnt a lot but I have not mastered it YET. I will try again in future. I think the bread flour you use has a big influence as well. I live in NZ and our flours are not renown as are the Canadian or even the australian flours. The journey continues....
Leslie
Another observation...lots of people (myself included) chase after the ultimate method or formula or strategy, searching for that secret to ultimate bread success, and that is totally understandable when you try and try something and it isn't what the pictures show.
But...Maurizio's method produces amazing bread. Trevor's method produces amazing bread. Chad's method does to...and an infinite number of variations all can produce amazing bread, including open crumb wonders. But again, it is in the execution and control of a bunch of things that collectively make it work in any given case. I've posted more than once how I have been convinced that X was my 'problem' and worked and worked on it, just to discover something I had never noticed explained what I was seeing. After many years of that, it is still happening...
The big 'aha' from Trevor's book for me was the bit about starter. I think my starter was overly acidic (as he described), so I did some big feeds to get the yeast population up and the acid down. I just go by smell - when I open the container from the fridge and it smells like vinegar (or makes my eyes water) I know it's time to reduce the acid. That made a big difference. I feel that the starter health and fermentation is at least as important as handling, if not more so.
of thought....
I think your bread looks great! I know you are aiming for the 'open crumb' grail but you are making great bread already!
I tend to agree with what other people have said and would like to add that I very much liked a comment from Vanessa Kimbell in her new book that was in essence to follow her formula but in the end 'you are in YOUR kitchen, with YOUR flour and in my case with MY FRIDGE...
So what I am saying is, that I look as many different approaches taught by different people and then 'make it my own'. I highly recommend to stay with one loaf and bake it again and again...you find a thread started by Dan where a group of people baked the Champlain again and again....
I highly recommend to do this and to also take photos...I still take notes and photos of my bakes and write them in a word document...
So key technique from Trevor (amongst sooooo many other inspiring things) is the Rubaud mixing method. Before that I struggled to get good gluten development just with the stretch and folds but with the Rubaud that kind of is done and I can focus with the stretch and folds to create 'structure'. Especially with the 'weaker' British flour that has been a revelation to the air into the dough during mixing.
Maurizio made me really aware of the importance of 'temperature' during bulk and to treat that almost like an ingredient...
I also find that baking is such an iterative process and once one 'variable' was better understood, I would find another that I was blissfully ignorant off!!!
Which leads me to Dan's point of how much time to proof at room temp before putting dough in banneton into fridge. In my humble opinion I believe that cold retarding will give you better oven spring and also makes scoring easier...
BUT....I NOW in hindsight notice that many formulas say something like 'and after final shaping put the loaf into the fridge'!!!!
It is a miracle that I got some really beautiful open Champlains not realizing that it was a close edge and the importance of the temperature in the fridge!!!!
This is where I lost a many loaves due to the nastiness of my SMEG family fridge, which I titled 'Smugness' as it sabotaged many of my loaves with me being blissfully ignorant to it...and ended up slightly overproofed in the fridge!
Revisiting the Champlain thread and my notes...I come countless times across a 'put it into the fridge for 12 hours' with NO MENTION ON WHAT EXACT TEMP MY FRIDGE was at the time...makes me smile now..... ....as it happens my fridge especially in summer can fluctuate from 5C to 9C....but most fridges due to food hygiene are much colder i.e. 3C and this makes a difference especially as the dough will need to cool down in the fridge anyway...
So, I tend to agree with Dan that depending on temp in your fridge or whatever you use for 'cold retarding' should you go that route be aware of the temp of your fridge as this may mean that in case of a 'cold' fridge it may be good to ambient proof for 1 hour and then in fridge...
In my case that would be the worse thing to do and I am now looking at getting a freezer built into a retarder a la blog by Maurizio...or a wine cooler from a friend...It is interesting again that a warmer environment like 5C or higher is great for cold retarding and again Vanessa Kimbell says that in her book but normal fridges tend to be colder.
Sorry for being too wordy but I think getting fermentation right is key starting with a very healthy starter, getting the timing and temperature right during bulk and build structure and then judge the 2nd proof correctly (which is my kryptonite at the moment).
Then that gently touch with shaping is important not to get rid of all those lovely bubbles but whilst at the same time getting enough tension so that the loaf does not sag...(and had many of those too in my case...)
Happy baking and beware of the nasty 'fridges'.... :D Kat
My fridge was too warm - 8-10°c and my dough proofed overnight, sometimes more than it should. NOW, it is 3 -5°c (depending on what is going in and out of it) so now I think I agree with Dan. My next steps to try are some room temperature proofing BEFORE I retard it overnight. I have tried cautiously but see that I can go a bit more. You see, the more you know, the less you know..... lol
Leslie
when the 'warm fridge' came up as part of our Champlain community bake and the troubles that you encountered....but I was so hung up on tension pulls and folds etc. that I totally overlooked that important part BUT that's how learning works and makes me smile now...I actually love to go back to the notes of some of those bakes and recognise the journey that we all have made so far! :D Kat
Leslie, if your refrigerator is not cold enough, don’t you think the room temp proof before the retard will exacerbate the problem?
I am wondering if you and Kat (both have stated their frig was a little warmer) have achieved such outstanding open crumb because your breads were allowed to continue a somewhat more active cold fermentation during he time spent in refrigeration.
How I wish I had a cold proofer to test this theory. I’d like to try proofing dough at 44F while watching to make sure it didn’t over proof.
Dan
and was pondering on this....if your fridge still tends to be on the 'warmer' side then I would NOT do the room proof as this would make the problem worse. In fact, I have resorted to putting the plastic bags that I put the dough in into the freezer to make the dough just cool down that bit quicker in the fridge to the 'whatever' temp it might be ranging from 3C to 6C depending on fridge load and weather....
A more stable cold retarding solution is my next 'must have' as otherwise why do I bother to putting so much effort into the loaves, just to put them into my totally unpredictable fridge....if it is at least reliably at 3C, then the room proof is a good approach otherwise be careful, I would say..... :D Kat
Kat, the cold plastics bags sounds like a good idea! What about putting the dough into the freezer for a short time to bring down the residual heat in the dough? Or a few ice cubes in the bag?
We are only talking about a few degrees cooler making the difference.
Dan
I am getting much less rise in the fridge overnight so that is why I will try the room temp proof. Last bake the field blend had about 45 minutes but it would have been ok about double that I think. Dan’s amazing crumb has convinced me to try this and see. but as you say, I will be careful and watch it like a hawk!
Leslie
I know this is an old thread but here's my two cents anyway.I am a big fan of TJW his methods are what I base my sourdough baking on. I agree with many of the comments in this thread, but have to concur that handling, ie stretch and fold, during fermentation, and shaping the dough are the key elements in establishing an open crumb. I also have found that the more active my starter is, the greater is its contribution to open crumb, also, I always proof overnight in the fridge (38F) and I bake right from the fridge to the oven I think this really contributes to oven spring which also helps open up the crumb. I'm still working at this and while I do get a nice open crumb it's not as open a TJW's but its getting there.