The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Wheat bread not as good after upgrading from Panasonic SD-YD250 to Zojirushi BB-PAC20

GregL65's picture
GregL65

Wheat bread not as good after upgrading from Panasonic SD-YD250 to Zojirushi BB-PAC20

I used a Panasonic SD-YD250 for several years, making over 1,000 honey wheat loaves. They were delicious. On the first day after baking, it was almost as delicious as a pastry. I have never tasted better wheat bread.

Recently I upgraded to a two-paddle model, the Zojirushi BB-PAC20. I like the shape of the loaves, but the honey wheat bread does not taste quite as good. It doesn't taste bad, but it never tastes as good as it did with the Panasonic SD-YD250. I started with the wheat setting but found it's a little better with the white bread setting, and crust set to dark.

The Zojirushi has custom cycles; do I need to set a custom cycle? If so, any suggestions?

One interesting difference I've noticed between the two bread machines is that the Panasonic really slammed the dough hard against the pan wall. The Zojirushi is much more gentle. Would that make a difference?

I looked at the wheat recipe in the Zojirushi's manual but it does not look appealing. Here's the recipe I'm using:

2 cups wheat flour
2.5 cups white flour
2 tablespoons vegetable shortening
2 tablespoons powdered milk
2 teaspoons salt
1/3 cup honey
1.5 cups water
1 teaspoon bread machine yeast (but I've had to use a little more than that with the Zojirushi)

Thanks for any suggestions.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I would think are geared for that particular machine. The settings may differ producing different results. Taking a recipe from one and using it in another even on what is described as a "wheat bread" setting might not work as well.

The only things I can think of is...

1: for you to at least try the wheat bread recipe that came with the machine.

2: Compare the recipes and see if something can be tweaked here and there to improve it.

What is the other machines equivalent recipe?

GregL65's picture
GregL65

Thanks, but this recipe did not come with the Panasonic. We found it on the internet. It's a generic bread machine recipe.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Take a look at the timing of the cycles each machine uses and set the Zorushi to match. I would bet that there is a difference in how long the dough is allowed to rest or possibly in how long it is kneaded. Bread achieves flavor with fermentation time. If it is a consistency issue, it can also be that the dough is not given sufficient time to absorb the moisture into the branny bits in the WW flour.

GregL65's picture
GregL65

Thanks, here’s what the Panasonic manual says for it’s whole wheat cycle, with the variations depending on ambient temperature:

Knead: 15–25 min
Rise: 2 hr 20 min - 2 hr 50 min

Total knead/rise: 2 hr 35 min - 3 hr 15 min (average 2 hr 55 min)

Here’s what the Zojirushi says for it’s white bread cycle. BTW I see that knead/rise time is somewhat more for its white bread cycle than for its whole wheat cycle, maybe that accounts for why it works better for me:

Knead: 19 min
Rise 1: 35 min
Punch down/Rise 2: 20 min
Punch down/Rise 3: 40 min

Total Knead/Rise: 1 hr 54 min

(For whole wheat the Zojirushi’s total Knead/Rise time is 1 hr 29 min - 1 hr 49 min, average 1 hr 39 min)

I think the Panasonic does multiple punchdown/rises too, but I’d have to sit with it for 3 hours to document how much time each one is.

So — I see that I need to increase the knead/rise time, probably to about 3 hours total. The custom settings allow me to set knead time to 5 - 30 min, 1st rise time to 1 min - 12 hrs (!), and each of the last 2 rise times to 1 min - 2 hrs.

But I’m not clear on how best to divide up the time. Is it very important?

Also, is it harmful to have too much knead time? Would it be a problem to go to the maximum of 30 min knead time?

Where can I find information to educate myself about deciding knead and rise times? The Zojirushi manual is not helpful.

GregL65's picture
GregL65

I think I’ll try this to start:

Knead: 22 min (because that’s the Zojirushi’s default for whole wheat)
Rise #1: 1 hr
Punch down/Rise #2: 30 min
Punch down/Rise #3: 1 hr

That would give me a total knead/rise time of 2 hrs 52 minutes, pretty close to the Panasonic’s average of 2 hrs 55 minutes. I just don’t know whether 1hr/30min/1hr is a good way to split 2.5 hrs among the 3 rise times.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Disclaimer: I have very little experience with bread machines but many concepts are the same.

That being said, bread machine or not, figuring out the best way to make a recipe takes experimentation. I think the settings look "ok" except you might need to switch the Rise #2 and Rise # 3 settings. IE, make Rise #2 1 hr and Rise #3 30 minutes. Rise #1 and #2 are really fermentation times and Rise #3 is the final proof. Sometimes that last rise does not take as long. If you have already baked a loaf with your proposed settings, you may already know if they work or not. If the loaf came out a bit deflated then take my suggestion and decrease the proof time. If it came out perfect, keep it as set.

GregL65's picture
GregL65

The bread was a big improvement and was delicious, though a little on the tall side. 

Someone elsewhere suggested having the first rise cycle longest and the final rise cycle shortest, such as 60min/50min/40min. I believe that should make it less tall due to the shorter final rise cycle.

GregL65's picture
GregL65

I tried 80min/60min/40min, to keep the tallness down while adding 30 minutes to the total rise time. Delicious! And the tallness was about right.