The Fresh Loaf

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lurker learning and looking for critique of new loaves

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jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

lurker learning and looking for critique of new loaves

new loavesnew loaves

New guy here 

Finally got photos to load (enough to drive one to the yeasted beverage)

I've been away from bread making for several years but recently got back to it in an effort to clone the multi grain loaf at Panera Bread.  My wife says mine is better so thought I'd share a photo here and ask for some feedback from the more able ones on here. 

It is started the day before with 3 cups water, 1/2 cup each of spelt, rye, and buckwheat along w/3 cups WW, 1 teaspoon yeast and 2 tbspn vital gluten.  What's the fancy french word I can't pronounce...for the overnight ferment?

Then I add 2 tbspn each of molassas, buttermilk powder, BRM 10 grain, flax seed, hulled millet, steel cut oats, quinona, and sesame seeds.  I also add at this time 2 tsp salt and bread flour to make a slightly sticky dough.

Let it rise, divide, knead, shape, slash, let rise, and bake w/o preheating at 450 for 30 plus till the interior is 190+

I shape my loaves and use bakers secret brownie pans for my shaped loaves....

slicedsliced

so, what should I tweak, do differently??  (besides figuring out how to take the closeups in focus)

thanks for all the reading I've enjoyed on here

thanks for a great site Floyd

Tom in west central Indiana

Thegreenbaker's picture
Thegreenbaker

gods that sounds awesome! I want to eat it right now warm with butter!

I am going to try that combination!

YUM!

 

I have nothing else to offer, except that sounds amazing!

Ramona's picture
Ramona

I think they look good, sound good, and I bet they taste good.  I think you did fine.  So you bake these at 450 degrees the whole 30 minutes or longer and they don't get too dark? 

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

Thank You Greenbaker for the comments. Yes, it has a unique flavor...the 1/2 cup of buckwheat adds a subtle, sweet taste. 

Ramona, The reason it dosen't get too dark is because I've learned here to try that newfangle no pre heat idea and I like it!  It simplifies things more....rise in the cold oven, when it rises to size, I slide the rack out, take off the plastic wrap, and slash with spray to help knife to slide and turn the oven on.....so it's not at 450 the whole time....sometimes it'll go 40 minutes but I turn it down to 350 - 400 depending where the internal temp is and the color. 

I'm no expert but have the idea that maybe there might be more oven rise with the oven heating w/the bread in it because the yeast isn't heat killed as fast as it would be with the loaf put on a 400+ degree stone....does that make any sense??

I started doing the couple hour "sponge" years ago and sure like that method though now I do it over night thanks to TFL.   It also seems much easier to incorporate the remaining flour to make the final dough...but would like to hear any other ideas.  I haven't made any loaves with AP or straight bread flour which still seem like "white bread" to me....it's what my father who immigrated from Holland would call cake!

thanks for any comments and suggestions

tom

subfuscpersona's picture
subfuscpersona

I notice you use brownie pans for the dough when baking using a cold oven start.

Have you ever tried a cold oven start with the dough flat on a baking sheet? Like you, I have success with a cold oven start if the dough is in some kind of container.

However, I cannot get the bread to rise properly if it is "freeform". The dough spreads out rather than up and I don't get much oven spring.

Anyone reading this thread have tips? 

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

I use the brownie pans first of all because they were on sale  LOL

seriously, I have used parchment and standard bread pans but prefer the look of free formed loaves.  Like you sometimes the final dough is wetter than others and the temps are lower in the house so the rise is like me......wider than taller!  The shallow sides on the brownie pans allow it to spread only so far before coaxing it upwards.  They also make it easy to move the loaves around, rotate in the oven, etc.

The more knowing on here may chime in and help us understand the spread rather than rise problem.....cause I suspect it may have to do w/gluten developement??

I do know that using a greater percentage of white flour and cutting back on the WW will make it rise more but that defeats what I'm trying to learn to do.

Tom...on a cold morning, watching the birds at the feeder with a slice of the above with a thin scrape of marmalade on it  :>)

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Thanks for posting the recipe. It's going into my favorites so I can find it again. Can BRM 10-grain be found at a typical American supermarket, or must it be ordered?

Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

Good Morning Abby,

The BRM 10 grain....is Bob's Red Mill 10 grain which is a cracked grain cereal marketed as a breakfast cereal.  I get it in my local Kroger....there are 7 grain, and 9 grain varieties etc.  Its in a clear cello package.

I first was using a 1/2 cup of this but cut back because I couldn't get it to rise well enough so you can experiment w/the amount.....upping by tblespoons till your height of rise begins to disappoint!!

tom....chewing on some as we write :>)

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Tom, I'm still pretty much a novice to the techniques most posters here take as a matter of common knowledge. So let me see if I understand the method of constructing this bread.

 

First, a bunch of ingredients are combined together and sit overnight. Room temperature or in the refrigerator? Does this assume the second stage has to take place in the morning, or can it wait until late afternoon when I get back from work?

 

Then the next bunch of ingredients all get stirred together, not kneaded, and then they rise. Doubled, I assume? Then it's kneaded-- does it have to be divided first, or can it be divided after kneading? And it's kneaded by hand, about 10 minutes?And the final rise is another doubling?

 

Thanks, your bread looks great and I want to do it too! 

 

Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

Yes Abby, I add the different Whole Wheat, rye spelt and buckwheat with the water yeast and vital gluten the night before or morning before however the time works out that day.  I let it sit overnight usually till the next afternoon when I come home from school (teacher).....then I throw in the rest of the stuff and give it a quick mix, knead so I can do what ever else needs doing....when it's doubled

 I take it out, divide and knead gently, shaping into loaves to rise again and bake.......the look good stuff on top is a 5 grain mix of rolled grains that I roll the loave in before putting it in the pan to rise but that is optional

tom

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Tom, is your 5-grain mix commercially prepared or something you put together? I see oatmeal-- what else is in it? And do you have to brush it with egg white or something to make it stick, or does it just adhere to the surface of the dough?

 

Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

Hi Abby,  it is just a Bob's Red Mill product....5 grain rolled whole grain hot cereal....but when the bag is gone I'll probably go back to just rolled oats.

What I do is sprinkle them on the counter, spray my formed loaves with water and roll them in the flaked grains, then put em in the pans and spray them again...this keeps the plasti wrap from sticking too.  

I try to keep the KISS principle going....5-10 to measure and mix the initial stuff, then 15-20 to mix in and knead the next day......when it is risen another 10 to divide and form and then just watch it rise...pull the plasti wrap and turn on the oven.....

tom

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Keep it simple stupid?

 

Uh-oh, I think I'm a little confused again. So the kneading actually takes place when the molasses and all the various unmilled grains are added, and not after everything is added and then it rises? When does the kneading take place exactly? Sorry to be dense.

 

Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

Yup, the main knead I do is when I add all the goodies and the bread flour to make the dough....it is left to rise, then lightly kneaded again, divided and formed into loaves.

tom

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I'm looking forward to collecting all the ingredients and making this bread. I'll report back with results. Thanks!

Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

best wishes...I've got a new batch started...will finish it up after school tomorrow.....I wonder from the pros on here what recommendations or comments they might have on the order and timing of my adding in of thing like the vital or the salt, buttermilk etc...should any of the items be added to the first batch??

tom

BobS's picture
BobS

Hi Tom,

I tried your recipe, including the overnight ferment and no-preheating. Got a good-tasting bread, but one that seems denser and darker than your pictures. Any idea how much bread flour you are adding. I added about 10 oz: tht's around 2 cups

 

Thanks

b

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

so glad to hear from someone!!   the picture above was using the white whole wheat so that may  have caused it to be lighter.....differences in whole wheats may have contributed to the denser loaf.....I'm using more like 3 cups of bread flour which would add to the rise....I'm in a cold kitchen....64 degrees (hate paying for LP and the corn stove only does so much!) so my rise times are long and I have to force myself to wait long enough to get he height.  To get more height and open crumb you might go with only 2 cups of whole wheat in the overnight ferment w/the rye, buckwheat, and spelt.

Did you enjoy those little "taste bombs" in the combinaton of seeds??  I like the chewing texture and the particle discovery after the fact LOL

sure appreciate your experiemts with me...the other thought is which molassas one uses....light or dark and how much....I don't really measue it to close....just pour two puddles that look like a tablespoon!

tom

 

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I just finished my first experiment with Tom's multi-grain Panera clone, and it had a funny bitter aftertaste that I'm trying to identify. Part of my reason for wanting to use this recipe was because I've got some buckwheat and rye flour that's been hanging around for quite some time. Could the nasty aftertaste at the back of my throat be due to the fact that these flours were past their expiration date? The buckwheat's expiration was 10/05 and the rye's was 05/07 Which of these flours would tend to get most rancid?

On the other hand, maybe it's just me. My husband and daughter didn't perceive the aftertaste. 

Abby

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Taste the flour before baking with it. Does it have an aftertaste? Do you have any pets? How did they react?

Hi Tom, I'm enjoying your thread.  You're doing just fine, wouldn't dream of interrupting you but I guess I just did.  You seem to have a talent for putting your seeds and flours together.  Your bread looks great!  I like crunchies too.  Now that my multi grain is about 3 days old, it tastes much better.  I find that esp. applies to buckwheat and millet. Just when it starts getting really good, the loaf runs out.  What do you think?

Mini O 

KipperCat's picture
KipperCat

Hi Abby,

Have you stored your flour in the freezer?  I wouldn't use it if it's been kept at room temperature.  Even plain white flour tastes old after a year. 

But the main reason I'm posting is to say that we all perceive taste differently. My husband can detect bitterness from whole red wheat flour that I don't even notice.  You might be happier with whole white wheat flour. I don't remember your mentioning white wheat, so I apologize if this is old news to you.

This bread looks so good!   

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

I'm sorry, Mini Oven, I don't understand the question about pets. Do you mean, should I see if the pets react to an aftertaste if I fed them a sample? Good idea, but no pets.

 

All the flours taste good, including the expired ones. But here's the possible culprit-- the 2 tablespoons of vital gluten. It's spiked with vitamin C, and I can taste the citric acid.

 

I'm going to try the recipe again, but maybe instead of molasses I'll substitute honey to counteract the taste of the vital gluten. 

 

Abby

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

maybe, Two tablespoons Vital Gluten? I don't use it myself but someone else might know if it is too much.  I would leave out the expired buckwheat and add more spelt instead, then you could leave out the vital gluten.

Mini O

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

It said tbsn. I took that to mean tablespoon. I don't know what vital gluten is or does, so I took it on faith.

 Abby

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

yes, Abby I use 2 tablespoons...which isn't much considering there are over 6 cups of flour and 1 1/2 of those are w/o gluten...spelt, rye, buckwheat......You can feel free to try w/o the gluten but it might result in a lower rise so you could also drop the WW back to 2 cups and thus increase the bread flour ratio which would also help in the rise. 

I can't think what would cause the "bitter" taste....

I've made about 8 more loaves since posting this here and they've all been super....

Thanks Mini for trying it and NO problem jumping in....I'm looking for all the feedback I can get!  I've had faily consistent results with this and my wife and I both slice it for lunch sandwiches daily.....but any other ideas are welcome

tom

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I have been enjoying reading this thread and just thought I would toss my 2 cents in on the after taste. I might suggest that the molasses may be the after taste. Especially if you may have added more than 2 T which is quite a lot. Things like sugar, honey and molasses and malt do more than flavor the bread. The sugar also gives the yeasty beasty's something to eat that will speed up the rise and create a warmer color in the crust, earlier.

I know it's hard to hold yourself back but you will progress more quickly if you change one or maybe two things at a time. Flour is cheap, start with fresh so you know what you have. Measure or better yet weigh everything so you can make changes you will be able to duplicate and above all, keep notes. When you get so you can knock out your favorite bread with confidence, you are on your way.

Your breads look good from here and if they taste that way now, make small changes as you experiment.

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sorry Tom, but Spelt can be handled about equal to All Purpose wheat flour. 

Hamelman also writes:  "It has attributes similar to regular wheat in bread baking, such as a high protein level and sufficient gluten to produce breads with reasonable volume.  It is nutritionally similar if not superior to regular wheat."

Mini O

jonkertb's picture
jonkertb

caught me LOL ....and taught me :>)

I aven't tried this mix w/o the gluten...w/the predominante amount of wheat / gluten containing flour it might not be needed....I added it 1. because I had it and 2. because of all the seeds and cracked grains being added in...next go around I'll try it without and see what happens.

 Abby, to get more rise try keeping the final dough as wet as you can with out it being to sticky to work with and be very careful in that final short knead and shaping of the loaf....don't work it toooo much so that it carries over some of the gas from the second rise...

tom

AbbyL's picture
AbbyL

Thanks, everyone, for all your helpful suggestions about the source of the aftertaste I was getting from my first attempt at this bread. I tried it again using the flour I had on hand, including the expired rye and buckwheat, but I used only half the vital gluten (1 tablespoon) and honey instead of molasses, and now I'm very pleased with the taste and the aftertaste (none). Now I'd like to experiment with ways to get a more open texture, but it's quite a nice sandwich bread as it is.

 Abby