The Fresh Loaf

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Continued Oddysey (and OCD) Towards Achieving Holy Grail of Open Crumb!

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Continued Oddysey (and OCD) Towards Achieving Holy Grail of Open Crumb!

Hello to all you wise sages out there.  Long post, but I'm really hoping you amazing bakers out there can ease my recent torment!

So I'm a complete novice when it comes to artisan/rustic breads, and have a few obstacles that for the life of me can't get past.  The main goal is to achieve those explosive and beautiful oven springs that result in outrageously huge and irregular holes.  I've been baking basic pan loaves for years for my family, and only recently have begun to experiment with wet doughs, and I AM OBSESSED.  I've played around with different autolyzing times, bulk fermentation at room temp or cold retardation, final proofing at room temp or cold retardation, different pre-shaping/final shaping methods, etc., with various degrees of satisfaction, but never close to what I want--you know, stuff like what Trevor J Wilson and so many amazing bakers out here produce.  So here go my questions, and please please help me answer all these.  I would be eternally grateful!

- It seems that almost 100% of the relevant discussions involve sourdough!  I don't have any experience in sourdough, but would like to eventually get there, but not before I'm 100% confident of my knowledge with wet doughs/basic artisan bread.  But here's the question: must one use sourdough to create those outrageous oven spring and open/airy crumb?  Can yeasted dough achieve that as well?  No one ever mentions yeasted dough when talking about open crumbs and oven spring

- People seem to advise bulk fermenting and proofing times at room temp that involve hours on end.  Is it because it's sourdough and the natural yeast just takes longer than instant yeast?  I understand that room temperatures vary infinitely depending on what sort of climate one bakes in.  But just generally, I suspect that sourdoughs take longer to rise and ferment?

- There's been plenty of talk about DDT.  Is it really THAT important?  If you don't pay attention to the DDT, would that render all other variables useless.  Can't you manipulate other variables to achieve strong oven spring, or DDT is a necessary consideration?

- Also, seems like the vast majority of people shape and proof theirs doughs into a batard vs round boule.  What's the reason behind it?  Does the shape actually create bigger holes because there's less room for the dough to spread out in all directions?

- I'm very confused about whether to de-gas or not.  Most comments/videos advise to handle the dough gently during pre-shaping and final shaping, and to not destroy any bubbles that have been created during bulk fermentation.  But just by releasing the dough from its container necessarily causes huge deflation.  And second, I see bakers slapping and stretching dough during shaping all the time.  I've even seen bakers pat the dough to get rid of bubbles and advising that they will return during final proof.  Even if I were to not consciously de-gas, the mere exercise of pinching the dough to stretch (for building tension) and shape a boule would involve deflation.  So just HOW careful should I be during pre-shaping and final shaping?  Should I de-gas a bit to create room for more gas to form during final proof, or should I completely try to avoid any disturbance to the dough whatsoever (then how the heck do you stretch/fold to shape a boule?)  Currently, I either stretch and fold in a clock-wise fashion or do the stitching method by Trevor J Wilson, then flip the dough ball over and do a round or two of tightening, all the while trying as hard as possible to not disturb the integrity of the dough.  The resulting ball is quite bubbly, jiggly and very delicate.  So is that good, or should it feel more substantial and solid, and let the final proof do its work in re-building bubbles?    

- Continuing on the topic of dough handling.  What's your preferred method of tipping dough out to prevent unnecessary tears and overall damage?  The Trevor J Wilson method of wetting hands then doing a letter fold then tipping the dough out?  He doesn't grease his container prior to bulk fermentation.  Do you grease your container before bulk fermenting?  Again, I fear one of my problems is the dough handling after bulk fermentation, from releasing to pre-shaping, to final shaping.  I feel and fear that too much gas has been lost during the handling.

- What are your views on underproofing?  Seems like quite a few people advocate underproofing in order to achieve phenomenal oven spring.  Can I get some clarity on this point?  Underproof or not?

- Finally, AP or bread flour?  I've read conflicting advice on this.  To me, bread flour makes more sense because of the stronger gluten to hold the gas in.  But someone also said the strong gluten structure prevents big bubbles from forming--like it's harder to inflate a strong and tight baloon.  Thoughts?

Thank you SO SO very much for helping me with my OCD!  For reference, here's my basic formula

- Biga 35% at about 70% hydration, prepared the night before and fermented in a wine cooler at 15C for about 12 hours

- Then mix in bread flour, yeast, water (final hydration, including biga = 80%, total flour used = 450g), autolyze for 30 mins at room temp at about 24C (75F) or wine fridge at 15C (59F)

- Add salt then mix with dough hook for 5 mins

- rest 5 mins, then S&F 3-4 times at half hour increments

- bulk ferment at room temp for a couple hours, or overnight retard in 10C (50C) fridge for 14 hours (I've had better results with the cold ferment)

- tip out, pre-shape, covered bench rest for 10 minutes (it's hot and humid in Hong Kong right now, so kitchen temp is about 27C (81F)

- shape then proof in banneton for about 45 mins at about 24C (75C) room temp or an hour in the wine fridge.  I finger test the dough and make sure it's slightly underproofed.  If the advice is to underproof, then I'm a bit lost at this stage.  How underproofed should the dough be? 

- Slash then bake in a 250C (482C)  pre-heated dutch oven.  Sometimes I mist the dutch oven, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.  If anything, the bread comes out flatter when I mist, but I don't know if there a cause and effect there.

THANKS AGAIN everyone!

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Open crumb is definitely possible - the difference between sourdough and natural yeast is that sourdough works WAY slower. I.e. natural yeast can double dough in an hour (at HK temperatures maybe faster), whereas sourdough generally takes a minimum of three to four, or more. (the other difference, which is why people bake with it, is that there are lots of bacteria in a sourdough culture which produce a complex taste in that same time) Your proofing times will leave the dough way overproofed/overfermented, I think. Don’t worry so much about handling - you seem to have all the basics down - just reduce your first fermentation time (shape and proof after doubled) then try again?

edit: this, from ages ago, should give you a basic idea as to timings - http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/rusticbread

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Thanks so much for your insights and clarification on instant yeast vs sourdough.  So my suspicion was correct in that sourdoughs take much longer to work their magic vs commercial yeast, and so I may have been focusing too much on fermentation/proofing times that are more appropriate to sourdough baking.  Specifically, I may be overproofing at bulk fermentation.  See, I never considered the 2 hours of S&Fs to be a fermentation period (which now in retrospect is silly), and thought that the 1st proof started AFTER the 2 hours of S&Fs.  So I would end up with a total of about 4 hours of bulk proofing at room temp, double of Hamelman's recipe in your link.  By the way, thanks for the link, I immediately printed it out and can't wait to try it out tomorrow!  That recipe is so simple and less complicated than what I've been doing recently.  All the in-depth discussions around sourdoughs on TFL perhaps got me way over thinking! 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

I agree with most bakers that dough can sense fear :)

OK, here comes the suggestions:

1. I don't think sourdough is absolutely necessary for open crumb, it's more for flavour.

2. Unless your leaven/starter is over-ripe or under-ripe, the fermentation time should not be much longer than that for commercial yeast. According to my past experience with commercial yeast, approximately 1/16 tsp of it equals to 10g of prefermented flour (or 20g leaven). I think the major reason it takes hours of bulk fermentation for most sourdough is that the it uses a much lower percentage of yeast to start with (which develops flavour). I live in HK as well and it takes 1.25 hours and 2.5 hours for the dough to be fully proofed at 27-28°C and 16°C respectively. (my bread is usually 100% whole grain so for white bread it may take 1.75/3.5 hour)

3. I never measure DDT and the bread comes out fine. I'm not sure if managing it would makes a huge difference but it's just too irritating for me. However, I do use cold water in the summer and lukewarm water in the winter.

5. It's recommended to handle the dough gently to avoid rupturing all gas bubbles but of course it's going to degas when you fold it. Just try to fold it gently and avoid tearing it then you should be fine.

6. I never grease my container (which is a huge bamboo salad bowl). You can easily scrap it out with the scraper so why bother? Stretch the dough gently and stop once it feels tight. Let it rest if necessary to avoid tearing.

7. I think what other bakes mean is only a slight under-proofing. You will definitely get a dense loaf if the dough is severely under-proofed and a flat loaf if over-proofed. Slight under-proofing is definitely better than slight-over-proofing. Yet severe under-proofing is equally bad as severe over-proofing.

I can't answer all your questions as I don't have experience with some of them as well. I'm still a new bakers (1 year into baking, 0.5 year into working with sourdough) but I hope it still helps. 

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Thanks for the reassurance on dough handling when tipping out the dough and shaping.  I really try to be as careful as possible.  What is it people say, something like "iron hands and velvet touch," or something like that.  Hope my hands aren't too callousy.  JK, no callous on my hands.  OK, so I'll continue to slightly underproof my breads. 

Clarification, when you say your doughs fully proof at 1.25 hrs in room temp of 27-28C, you mean for sourdoughs or yeasted breads?  Either case, it makes me feel a lot better knowing that it's normal for my doughs to proof so quickly relative to what I read on this site.  Now I'm pretty convinced that I've been over-proofing in general.  I always tried extending the proofing time because it just didn't seem right that other people have been final proofing for 2+ hours and mine seemingly puffs up in 30-40 minutes!  But now I know it's because I'm not baking sourdough and the HK temps really make a huge difference.  If I get this down I'll start the move to sourdough!

BTW, my confession is that the only reason why I'm after huge open crumbs and explosive oven spring is because of the challenge.  I just want to know that I can do it.  Personally I'm not even a fan of breads with crazy big holes like the really beautiful ones on Instagram.  They look awesome, but I wouldn't even be able to but any spreads on them, and what's the fun in eating air?  lol

Thanks again!

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

both sourdough and instant yeast. As I mentioned before, I haven't noticed any significant difference in the time required for the two. The reason why I know 1/16 tsp of instant yeast equals 20g leaven is because that is my first-hand experience. I adopt the overnight bulk fermentation approach and that is the amount of yeast I use for instant yeast and sourdough respectively. I used to work with instant yeast and transformed to sourdough half a year ago. Remember that the 12°C variation translates to a 4 times difference in yeast activity so you must watch the dough!

30 to 40 minutes seem pretty short for proofing time but is still reasonable in my opinion. The reason why I need 1.25 hour is probably because I degas the dough by stretch and fold (that means 20+30+25) during the proofing period. As I use the no-knead overnight method, stretch and fold for a few times would improve the dough structure, which gives rise to better oven spring. My dough puff up by about 1.5 times too after resting for 30 minutes but it seems pretty weak so I prefer the method above.

The sky high price of good bread in HK is also one of the reasons why I decided to bake my own. I love the springy texture of holey bread like ciabatta and focaccia (though I don't bake them). But if you don't enjoy eating those kind of  bread, why bother? Chose the one you like so that you can enjoy both the baking process and the final product:)

Happy Baking!

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Man, I don't even know how to accurately measure out 1/16 tsp haha, and my scale is in whole number grams.  So to be clear, you stretch and fold for 1.25 hours AFTER the overnight bulk fermentation?  And then you immediately shape and bake?  I must be getting something wrong.  Or you stretch and fold for 1.25 hours then overnight bulk ferment?  And when you say your dough puffs up 1.5 times after resting for 30 minutes, you're talking about the bench rest after pre-shaping right? 

Actually I enjoy breads like ciabatta and focaccia.  I was referring to breads like the attachedBig Holes

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

The smallest one is 1/8 tsp so I just try to eyeball half a spoonful.

Sorry I should have made it clearer. I mean after I take the bulk fermented dough out, I stretch and fold it for a few times (no shaping) and let it proof/rest for 20 minutes. The dough puffed up by <1.5 times during this period. I then stretch and fold it again (no shaping as well), followed by another 30 minute rest/proofing. The dough rises to >1.5 times of itself this time. Then, I shape the dough and put it into a baneton to proof for 25 minutes (to 1.7 times of original) before it enters the oven. That is what I mean by 20+30+25.

I should probably add that I use another (but similar) approach if I'm retarding the dough. The fermented dough is stretched and folded before a 20 minutes rest (same as above). I then shape the dough and put it into the baneton. It is rested/proofed at room temperature for 20-30 minutes before retarding for 8-14 hours. I bake it the next morning after letting it warms up on the counter for an hour.

My practice is only a no-knead hybrid as I stretch and fold after bulk fermentation. I never stretch and fold before bulk fermentation or it can't be called no-knead at all, right? You can't bake right after shaping: you will get a brick...

By the way, the bread in the attached photo is exactly what I'd call a well-made "ciabatta" :)

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Silly me.  I realized the picture was a ciabatta, which is fine for me, because it's thinner.  What I was really talking about was a much larger loaf with holes even bigger than the ciabatta above.  Interesting, why do you not stretch and fold before retarding it over night, and choose instead to stretch and fold afterwards? 

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

I won't degas the dough after shaping and retarding. It's stretched and folded BEFORE the retard. I construct the folds after the bulk fermentation and after that the dough is shaped and retarded.

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

I used the terminology wrong. I was asking why you don’t S&F before the bulk fermentation, and choose instead to do it afterwards?  Seems like the standard is to stretch and fold, then bulk ferment either at room temp or overnight. Alright, no more annoying questions from me. You’ve been so helpful!  Thanks ?

Elsie_iu's picture
Elsie_iu

The bulk fermentation time for most formulas is at least 4-5 hours as there's only a small proportion of yeast to start with. It takes time for the yeast to reproduce by feeding on the sugar in the dough. If one options to stretch and fold within that period, he'd have to spend around half a day around the dough. I absolutely don't have the time for that! Using the no-knead approach, I just mix it roughly then leave it alone for 8-12 hours. The dough turns extendable with almost no work. 

When compared, the proofing takes much less time. I can also construct far less rounds of S&F as the gluten is already nicely developed. One or two sets of it are all it takes for strong dough structure. Since the dough becomes quite puffy after the bulk fermentation even if it's degassed, it's nearly effortless to stretch it.

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Happy baking and thanks for all your insights!