Loaves are wet after overnight proof.
Good morning.
My sourdough loaves are wet on the couches after overnight proofing. Oven spring is minimal too and the loaves tend to flatten during baking. Is this a consequence of over or under proofing? WW is always wetter despite WW absorbing more water.
SD recipe is:
300g Farmer Ground Flour AP
700g FGF high extraction
100g FGF whole wheat
30g FGF rye
830g water (73% hydration)
230g starter
23g salt
mix 4 minutes speed 1, 30 minute autolyse, mix 6 minutes speed 2.
WW:
200g FGF AP
200g FGF hi-ex
700g FGF WW
30g FGF rye
845g water
230g starter
23g salt
same mixing.
Starter is 300 water, 100/100/100 hi-ex/ww/rye
Stretch & fold every 30 minutes for 2 hrs, bull ferment until almost doubled. Pre-shape, rest 10 minutes, re-shape, rest 30-45 minutes until 50% proofed and in the fridge.
Couches are duster with cornmeal and buckwheat.
Fridge is at 41°F and the loaves retard 15hrs.
Thank yiu.
Could be mild underproofing but it's unlikely to be the main problem. Degree of proof is an important factor but it's a little overhyped around here IMO.
To me, what you describe (sticky, no oven spring) indicates poor gluten development. If your dough is a sticky, ragged mess in the couche, rather than a taut ball with a well developed membrane or "skin", it will stick regardless of anything. If your gluten development is inferior, you need to improve either your kneading, stretch+fold, or shaping technique.
love
I would say yes they are overproofed. Those are characteristics I've usually associated with going too long.
A combination of a very high starter percentage, a very long bulk ferment (allowed to double) and a long proof re-enforce that.
Things to consider adjusting would be total % of starter, less still works great. Bulk fermentation, Maybe aim for a 30-50 percent rise instead of waiting for it to double. And proof, trial and error is the best answer here.
My guess on why the whole wheat is wetter is because it is even more overproofed then the country by the time you bake. The more whole grains in the equation the faster the whole process seems to move along.
And I have to politely disagree and say degree of proof is one of the most important factors I can think off.
Thank you.
The SD boules flatten when baked (little-to-no oven spring and no ears) and are essentially the same size as when they went into the oven (start at 480F, 5 minutes of steam, 20 minutes @ 460F then 15 minutes @450F).
The oval WW loaves flatten like slippers (suggesting overproof) but then have the blow-outs which point to underproof.
It is absolutely confounding and irritating to the point of insanity.
SD. Crumb looks flattened.
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IMG_2585.JPG
WW. Better, but has the blowout.
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Now I am less convinced before that I know the answers... The crumb looks good to me and maybe has more to do with shaping. It could also be right on the end of ok/almost over.
I would still consider shortening proof time and/or bulk and see if it makes a difference.
Your dough probably goes into the refrigerator fairly warm after so much time proofing at room temperature and it takes a while to cool down to 41 degrees F. This may be one reason you see so much moisture. I'm guessing that 15 hours is too long for a dough that has this much momentum.
You might consider some refrigerator time during the last portion of bulk fermentation to start the temp going down.
Poor gluten development is unlikely, given the time spent in the mixer plus stretch and fold.
Your starter is also a possible suspect. What is your doubling time? And does it turn into a thin liquid mess quickly?
The starter has been a bit looser given the returned warmth of the kitchen. I feed it at 4pm and use it at 8am the next day which used to be fine in a colder kitchen (this is farm store -workplace endeavor and I prefer not to return to work in the evening to feed the starter). I may need to feed it with colder water.
I have a cooler set to 78F and the doubling time after 4 S&F is about 3-4 hrs.
A baker friend suggested that I need to bulk ferment longer and add longer steam. I bake on a stone and the crust on the bottom is not significantly lighter, but I can document next week. I bake in a Combination heat/steam Rational oven on pre-heated stones.
The flavor of the breads are enjoyable and the loaves are light(er) than before, but it is more the limited oven spring and erratic final shape (blowouts) that are discouraging and perplexing.
After bulk ferment the dough is airy and requires minimal flour to shape. Often, after the pre-shape, the SD is very wet and sticks to table & hands as if over-worked.
I am very satisfied by the quality of FGF flour and am committed to continue using it.
Thank you for all the observations and suggestions.
I'd like to see the bottom of the loaf. I suspect the bottom crust is lighter than the sides and top. Got another pic, please? :)
Wet, sounds like condensation, warm dough in cold fridge.
The kitchen is in the low 70's and the fridge (commercial walk-in refrigerator) is on the cusp of 40F. WW always leaves moisture on the couche even though it appear dry after shaping -it feels past peak proofing. I bake straight from the fridge (370g loaves)
I also make a pumpernickel (50% rye flour, 1% honey, 1% barley malt which is wetter/tackier after shaping but curiously is perfectly dry on the couche the next day.
My variables to consider might be:
-Shorter bulk ferment
-Shorter bench time after final shaping
I have yet to find a definitive resource for mixing time with a spiral mixer and stop mixing once the dough comes away clean from the sides of the bowls
It may be condensation? Try leaving the bread uncovered in the refrigerator to let them cool down before you cover them.
Then place it in a plastic bag. Got this idea from Sarah Owens.
Shorter bulk ferment and 30 minutes bench after shaping and WW couches are still wet in the morning.
SD loaves after 10 minutes mix on speed 2 (after autolyse) and shorter bulk ferment are flat, might as well be a bialy and barely constitute bread. Crumb looks like my kitchen sponge.
Flummoxed and frustrated beyond reason. Would barley malt syrup benefit?
When the solution to the problems find you grabbing at straws, it may be time to seriously follow the starter and it's behavior. This line stands out to me:
"Often, after the pre-shape, the SD is very wet and sticks to table & hands as if over-worked."
You may have to record everything about it and reduce the inoculation if the temps have gone up to get it back on schedule.
I don't know if you've downloaded Trevor Wilson's book "Open Crumb Mastery" at breadwerx.com, but perhaps you would find it useful. I was just re-reading the part about starter health and it's effect on your finished dough and bread, and flags are being raised in my mind about the acid load in your starter. A starter that is too high in acid will have a proteolytic effect on the dough, turning it sticky and weak. There is too much information in the book to repeat it here but it's a very reasonable price and has a wealth of useful information on fermentation, shaping, etc.
Here's a thing you can try - take some of your mother culture / starter and give it a couple of big feeds (at least 4 times the amount of seed starter in flour; maybe more; with the corresponding amount of water to give you the hydration you want). If you can, check the pH of this starter. Smell it, and smell your regular starter. Then use this starter in a batch. Do a side-by-side bake with your usual starter and method, keeping everything else the same and see if it changes your bread.