May 2, 2018 - 7:08am
Large holes in starter vs. large holes in bread crumb
Yesterday, I read an article online that said a starter that produces large holes would also produce large holes in the bread crumb and vice-versa. I searched for quite a while and don't seem to be able to find the article. If memory serves me well, it was on a very credible website.
I have difficulty consistently producing large holes in the bread crumb. My starter also doesn't produce large holes. The starter is fed with AP flour and kept at 74 - 76F. It is consistently fed twice a day @ 1:3:5 and since I changed flour brands I get a 3.75X rise. Of course, when the starter is fed some or all Whole Grain Rye and holes are larger, but I attribute this to the whole grain.
What say ye?
Dan
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That's just a crock of bull. Crumb structure depends on adequate gluten development and handling.
Seems unlikely to me; once you mix the starter up into your final dough, you change pretty much everything about it. Agree with suave.
I’ve never considered that until reading about it on a credible website. I really wished I could find the link and correspond with the arthur.
My thinking is as follows. An active starter is needed for open (large hole) crumb. The bubbles are not a property of the starter. The starter produces the gas and the dough structure (gluten organization) and proper handling form the large holes.
I’m in the process of developing an experiment in order to run a visual test. If this test is successful it would tell me things that will help produce large holes. Is my handling to rough? Is my shaping collapsing the bubbles? Is my starter the culprit? Maybe I could mix a small sized complete dough with salt and Levain. Then without any additional handling place it in a clear container. As it ferments I could watch the bubbles.
Any ideas that might help with this test? Looking for ideas for this test.
Dan
This test was run in hopes of learning if my starter would produce large bubbles in a thoroughly fermented dough. The images below where taken after 14 hours of fermentation @ 76F.
The dough mixture was 100g Flour, 70g water, 2g salt, and 2g Levain. The mixture was completely hydrated and the left to ferment. I thought maybe the S&F and/or any kneading might be affecting the open crumb.
In your opinion, should the holes in this test be larger?
I am under the opinion that my starter is very active. The shot above used only 2g of 100% starter for 100g flour.
The image below is looking at the bottom of the glass container.
Any ideas and help appreciated.
Dan
like my dough would look like using the same recipe.
Hope this helps Dan.
Are you able you consistently produce the coveted open crumb with it?
Thanks for the reply.
Dan
As long as I handle it well. That is where I might mess up. The shaping! What's also important is judging the final proof well. And then there is the baking... enough steam (another issue I have).
So I guess what I'm saying is this type of dough can certainly produce a lovely open crumb but there's a lot of other aspects as well.
Here are my thoughts. If the dough does not produce the large holes in the BF, then they must be produced during the Proof or the bake. It doesn’t seem likely to me, but as I stated, I am not producing the crumb I desire. So what do I know?
Are the large bubbles absent in the BF and then manifest in the proof and/or bake?
Dan
expand when heated up? If the bubbles stayed the same size then the dough would never rise in the oven.
thinking out loud here.
Yes, I’m sure they expand. But when I look at images of the BF from those that constantly get the large holes it seems they always have huge bubbles protruding from the top and also airy holes can be seen through the container. At least I think that to be the case.
Dan
theories.....well, for what's its worth here are my humble thoughts as I cannot produce open crumb consistently.....
I have in the past with a 100% hydration starter and it looked similar to yours...
When it comes to holes, I think that I seem to get more holes with my stiffer starter 1:3:5....My 100% hydration starter has lots of smaller ones but not as many as the stiff starter...
I was trying the stiff starter as people on this forum said that it could help with oven spring....
For me I think it is the timing of the end of bulk fermentation and shaping that makes a big difference to crumb....
I hope this helps.... Kat
p.s. Just trying to duplicate the crumb of my recent blog again which is not open crumb but I liked it.....I seem to get good results with lower hydration and less folds as I have created gluten already and also adding water to the bulk fermentation seems to make the dough really silky...not sure whether this helps with open crumb though....sorry...