The Fresh Loaf

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knowledge needed to help a newbie

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

knowledge needed to help a newbie

just started making sourdough and have had consistently good results from using a mates starter, 500g strong white flour, 250g water, 10g salt and 300g starter.  as that always seems to come out well, i want to understand the different aspects of dough forming so i can experiment.  could i ask a few questions to get me on my way please?

1.  i dont really understand what gluten is or what it does to bread.  i only know how to follow a recipe, not why.  in my tried and tested recipe, i knead the bread for 10 minutes but dont know why, only that its something to do with gluten.  however, i also know that the sharpness of wholemeal will cut into gluten which is 'a bad thing', so a 'no-knead method' is preferred.  could someone explain what actually happens please, and if no knead works well for WW, then why not white too?  why knead at all?

2.  i just went straight in with a 100% organic white spelt flour which was a disaster.  it had no strength to it and flopped like a pancake (i dont have a la cloche or anything, i shape in a long banneton and empty onto a hot stone).  im told spelt is far harder to keep shape as it doesnt have the strength of normal white.  however, i dont understand this, and i also have a pack of organic brown spelt, whats likely to happen with this, the same?

3.  i just follow times given really, 2 hrs to rest, shape it then overnight in the fridge.  i dont really know what im looking for after the initial 2hrs, i just shape cos it says 2 hrs.  whats happening during this initial 2 hrs?  i read that to test that its ready to cook, prod it with finger and if it comes back up halfway slowly thats about it.  if the indent stays then its overproved, if it comes straight back up its under.  is this the best advice for checking the proving?

4.  im at present experimenting with a 50/50 wholemeal/white no knead method (cos wholemeal will cut the gluten if i knead it right?), and less starter, 100g.  ive folded it every half hour for a couple of hours, its still pretty sticky.  i dont really know what im doing and am a bit loathe to empty it into the basket as my last 'spelt splat' stuck to the linen when i emptied it which has made it really difficult to clean.  i dont want to make that mistake again.  will a sticky dough always stick to a well floured liner, so i need to ensure its not sticky before i empty it in?

5.  best way of cleaning a liner after its all dried out with sticky dough?

6.  what does more/less starter bring to a loaf of bread?  a lot of recipes call for 300g starter, others just 50g.

think thatll do for now :D  thanks for any advice you can give me, ive been reading loads and watching plenty of vids, so im getting the hang of some things, id just like to understand what happens and why so i can keep improving.

thanks

 

gwschenk's picture
gwschenk

Sounds like you need some sort of basic primer. The Bread Baker's Apprentice might be right up your alley. The first part of the book is a very basic text on making bread. It will answer most of your questions.

Some study and baking loaf after loaf of your whole meal/white bread is the best way for you to learn, IMHO. Soon some people who actually know what they're talking about will show up and answer some of your questions. Best of luck with your bread.

Hanzosbm's picture
Hanzosbm

Wow, that's a lot of big questions.  I'm going to give summary answers here to each, which will hopefully give you enough info to dig deeper into each one individually.

1) Gluten is basically an a mesh of elastic proteins that develop in some foods.  Think of long, elastic strings that get tangled up.  Certain grains have more gluten than others.  The more you work them, the more tangled up and stronger of a mesh they create.  That's why you knead bread, you're developing that gluten into a dough.  Think about a pile of rubber bands, as you knead, they're getting tangled up and forming a mass.  Without kneading, they're separate, after purposely tangling them up, they create a matrix.  (by the way, this is all way oversimplified and not exactly scientifically accurate, but it works for explaining in a simple manner)  The reason you create this matrix is so that the yeast and the carbon dioxide it makes, gets trapped in little bubbles.  Those bubble stretch out and create the light texture you're looking for in bread.  Imagine chewing gum versus bubble gum.  If it's not stretchy, you can't form a bubble, it just breaks.  Whole wheat, as you mentioned, cuts through those elastic bands of the gluten.  Not all of them, and kneading can still be useful, but you don't get the same consistency.  That's not to say that no-knead is the only way to go with whole wheat, but when kneading whole wheat, you'll never get the same kind of texture that you will with a refined wheat flour.

2) Spelt is a whole different animal.  It has very low amounts of gluten, so it behaves very differently.  Gluten is what helps a dough keep it's shape (remember, it's elastic), so without it, spelt isn't going to be as springy.  I've got a no knead spelt sunflower recipe that is crazy simple, and I love it, but working with spelt takes some getting used to because it doesn't behave like wheat dough.

3)  During the resting portions of making bread, what you're actually doing it allowing the yeast to do their thing (ignoring things like autolyse).  Depending on which phase and what kind of yeast, that is a combination of it making more little yeasties and/or converting the sugars into carbon dioxide (i.e., causing the dough to rise).  The times given in recipes are guidelines, but there are a lot of variables.  You don't want to cut the yeast short on time if they haven't accomplished their task, but allowing them too much time can also have negative effects.  And since 2 hours for the person writing the recipe might be right, your yeast, in your kitchen, with your flour, at your temperature, could need a different amount of time.  The best way to determine this is by look and feel.  How much has it risen?  Twice it's previous volume?  Three times?  What does it feel like?  How should it feel?  I'd love to give you an answer, but different kinds of bread require different things.  Most wheat based breads you want to let double.  That means you need to find a way to determine that.  Some people use containers that they can easily measure.  Some do it by eye.  Some cut off a small amount of dough and put it into a shot glass they can easily measure.  Some do a poke test to see when it has proofed long enough, but again, what you're looking for varies depending on the kind of bread.

4) Okay, there's a lot here.  Is your dough too sticky?  Maybe.  Recipes give a general idea on how much flour and water to use, but it varies.  I live in a very dry climate, and I always have to use more water than the recipe calls for.  You might need less.  Or, maybe it needs to be kneaded longer (that will reduce the stickiness).  You mentioned a no knead bread; I don't have a ton of experience with them, but generally, the ones I have used are too wet to use in a banneton.  Does your recipe call for a banneton?  You asked if a sticky dough will always stick to a liner.  Well...that's about the most ambiguous question ever.  How sticky?  If it's like cake batter, then...yep!  That's too wet of a dough to use in a banneton.  It all depends.

5) Best way to clean a liner...depends on the condition.  Ideally, you don't want to wash it, but it depends on how bad it is.  You might not have another choice.  If you can, I'd avoid detergents.  Try to just brush/flake it off.  If that doesn't work, soak it in water for a few hours and then try a gentle brush under water to remove all of the dough.  Let air dry, repeat as necessary, and reflour when COMPLETELY dry.

6) More of less starter is more or less yeast.  The more yeast, the faster rise and the more starter flavor.  But, a lot of starters are 100% hydration, which might be too high.  That's why you add some starter into the dough and let it sit.  You're essentially making a larger, lower hydration starter.  The longer that takes, the more flavor it will impart.  It's a balancing act.

 

I admire your drive and willingness to jump right in, but as you're trying to figure things out, might I suggest slowing it down a bit.  Have you done much baking with instant yeasts?  If not, you might want to start there.  Either way, start off with what flour doughs (save the rye and spelt for later).  Whole wheat is okay, but keep the percentages low at first, that way you can start to get a feel for things.  If you know any bakers around you, have them walk you through a simple recipe so you can see what it's supposed to look and feel like, then reproduce it, and do it a few times.  

This is really more art than science, and until you get a feel for things to be able to build off of, you're just going to be shooting in the dark.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

In addition to gleaning knowledge from bakers here, I recommend Hamelman's Bread.  It is comprehensive, extremely well written and easy to follow, and has dozens of spot-on recipes.  I'm not as enamored with Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice because I find his explanations tortured and unnecessarily complex.  It has a lot to offer, though.  If I could have one book it would be Hamelman.  Also check out his instructional videos.

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

thanks for the book pointers, ill go have a look for those online, and wow, what an excellent informative response hanzosbm!  very helpful indeed, but you might guess it leads to further questions if you have the time or inclination to answer :-)

1.  rubber bands.  great analogy, very helpful to understand.  i know it wasnt a scientific answer, but ok, keep working on the rubber bands until theyre all tangled up into one strong ball.  how then can you 'over-knead' dough?  why does it not get stronger and stronger the more you knead?  what happens for it to get to an optimal strength and then start weakening (or untangling?)

2.  a question i havent really found a good answer to on google, but why use spelt in the first place? :D  if its that rubbish to shape and spring, why bother?  to my untrained taste-buds, i didnt notice any difference in taste between white spelt and normal white bread flour.  i know that WW and rye have health benefits, but what does spelt bring to the party?  is that a health thing too?

3.  ok, so the resting/proving is to allow yeast to get to work.  but why the different 'phases'?  a basic recipe may say mix ingredients, rest for 2 hrs (allow yeast to work), shape, then prove for 4hrs (allow yeast to work), then bake.  if all its doing is allowing the yeast to work during that time, what does it matter how long each phase is?  couldnt you just mix ingredients, knead, shape, then rest for 6 hrs (allow yeast to work) then bake?  or conversely, mix, knead, rest for 6 hrs (allow yeast to work), shape then bake?  does the moment you shape it actually matter?

4.  i mentioned the stickiness to a friend who suggested using clingfilm in the basket instead of cloth for stickier doughs.  this seemed to make sense.  i made me think tho, why do we use cloth in the first place if a bit of floured clingfilm could do the same job with any dough?  is there a benefit to the cloth liner?

5.  thanks, noted.

6.  ok, so i think im getting that basically the amount of starter is just to regulate the time resting?  and whether you use room temp or the fridge, 50g of starter will take longer to rest/prove than 300g.  and the longer it takes the tastier it will be.  so 300g just allows you to get the end product a bit quicker at the expense of a bit of taste?

yep, i get you with the running before i can walk thing :-)  i just had a few consistent basic white loaves using the same recipe and wanted to experiment.  and trying subtle differences may be wasted on me, i bet i couldnt tell what difference 10% spelt made for instance, so i gambled on 100% (and lost) to see what differences in texture and taste i could discover.  i didnt notice any difference in taste, but i dont have very cultured taste buds i must admit :D

and you mention trying instant yeast?  the reason i started making sourdough was that i just liked the sound of something completely natural occurring, a sort of alchemy if you will :-)  i hear that shop-bought yeast isnt as good for you, i like the thought of a jar of starter bubbling away and helping make a great loaf of bread.  ive never baked anything before in my life, you can probably tell from my questions!

thank you very much for your help and i fully understand if you dont reply to these further questions, my fingers are aching from tapping this lot out so yours must have been too! :-)

thanks again

Hanzosbm's picture
Hanzosbm

The others have given great responses, but I wanted to answer as well.

1) Overkneading: I don't recall the science behind it (Alton Brown also did a great segment on gluten formation, actually, several, and I believe he explained it in one of them) but eventually, you can work it so much that it begins to break down.  I don't think it's caused by the same thing scientifically, but try to think of it like whipping cream.  You start off with a liquid, you beat it into a froth, but if you go too far, it turns to butter.  You can definitely overknead bread (at least white bread with strong gluten, I'm not sure about spelt/rye/etc) and especially in a mixer.

2) Spelt has both health benefits and taste benefits.  As of yet, you might not notice much of a difference, but it's there.  It also can play well in conjunction with other flours like rye and affect the texture.  I am making a rye/spelt loaf soon and the while not a lot of it, the spelt lightens up the dough a bit from a pure rye.

3) As has already been mentioned, you're remixing the yeast and it's food, but in addition, some of those phases also have to do with allowing gluten to form and also to relax.  

4) I would avoid plastic wrap.  I mean, if you want to give a shot, go for it, but every time I try to use it, even for a fairly dry dough, it ends up sticking.  The condensation wets the dough where it makes contact, which makes it stick.  Wicker or linen or even cotton pull moisture away, doing exactly the opposite.

5) Good

6) You're on the right track, but also keep in mind, particularly with sourdough, that there are several factors at play.  Yes, there is yeast, but there are also acids and bacteria.  These have a complex relationship between taste and rising and each one prefers different conditions.  By controlling time and temperature, we are essentially manipulating the relative levels of each of these for a desired result.  I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject, but I believe that the sourness from sourdough comes from the acids (lactobacillus I think?) which will continue to be produced in cold environments, whereas yeast slows down.  This is why long, cold fermentation yields a more sour bread.  Again, I might be wrong about that, but that's the general idea; you're encouraging different things to increase or decrease for a desired effect.

 

Instant yeast may not have all the same health benefits of sourdough, but to the best of my knowledge, it's not bad for you.  And I know it's not as much fun as 'the real thing', but it's a great way to learn the basics.  

Either way you go, good luck to you, this is a very fun hobby.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I will take a stab at a few of your questions.

 

1 .  Overkneading,   Malcolm Gladwell has a book,  David v Goliath - and he argues that for nearly everything, there is a yield curve, and that as you keep adding to something, the results improve, then there is a diminishing return, then the curve reverses and heads in the other direction.  So I don't know the why, but the point is you can overdo anything, and if you over do kneading, the dough and water will start to separate.  

2  Can't help on spelt, i mainly use 100% whole wheat.  I suggest you start with bread flour, it is much more forgiving.

3  Alton Brown has a great episode on yeast, and his explanation is that yeast are what causes bread to rise, and give it great flavor, but they aren't any good at moving.  When we first bulk ferment, the yeast feed on the food nearby and do their thing.  Once they have exhausted that food, they eventually die, so instead, we move them around - by degassing the dough, so they can get more food.  You can just do one rise, called straight dough, but the yeast won't get to work as long, so the flavor won't be as developed.

4 You could use cling film, but in general, the goal of the wicker proofing basket or cloth is to draw a little moisture out of the surface of the dough.  Cling film won't do that for you.

6  yes.  The more starter or yeast, the quicker the bulk ferment and final proof - and less flavor from the flour - that is why some recipes add other flavoring agents

 

Strongly recommend Bread by Hammelman.

 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1:

 

 

2: Agree with Barry. You've jumped into the deepend.

3: That's what everyone does at the beginning. Works better when working with yeast which is more predictable but as always one needs to watch the dough and not the clock. What are you looking for? This comes with practice but you're looking for gluten formation and a billowy dough.

4: Wholegrain will be more sticky. There are various tricks of the trade like having cold damp hands which will make it stick less but handling dough comes with practice. An experienced baker will make it appear less sticky then someone who is less confident.

5: I don't use a liner. Just flour a banneton. However using a non gluten flour like rice flour to line the banneton/liner will make the dough stick less.

6: Timing and flavour profile.

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

thanks everyone.

i tried the clingfilm method before id read the above answers and you were right, it was rubbish.  the flour still stuck to it even tho i floured it.  i shant be trying that again :-)

at present im trying the breadwerx 50/50 sourdough loaf, the one where you autolyse it is it?  everything mixed in apart from the starter and left overnight.  ive been following the video and i have a question.  i followed the recipe to the gramme, mixed it initially but it was still wetter than the video.  ok i thought, ill add a bit more flour, another 15g made it look more like the ball in the video.  however, in the morning when adding the 50g starter (which looked as wet as his), theres no way i can get it into the dry ball he seems to.  mine still spreads out and sticks to the bowl.  ive watched a few of his vids and im not sure that he doesnt use the same video sections for different loaves, so im not sure its an honest overview of that actual loaf.  what do you think?

as i type this im on about the 3rd fold (3hrs after mixing) so ill let you know how it actually turns out. 

btw, i agree that ive jumped in at the deep end, i didnt realise that such few ingredients would be so involved :-)  im going to calm it down i think and go back to my basic whites after this one and then slowly change things as advised :-)

thank

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

well it turned out absolute garbage, not even worth taking a pic.  nothing like the video, far wetter and even with a floured, lined banneton, it stuck to the liner and ripped.  id been looking for signs of proving but at no stage did it ever look under OR overproved, it just stuck to my prodding finger!  in the end i just tore it from the liner, plopped it on the baking tray and baked it but as expected probably my worst loaf yet.

im taking the advice and going back to basic white loaves for a while :D 

Hanzosbm's picture
Hanzosbm

Well, in all fairness to you, when the skin of the dough tears just before it goes in the oven, it's unlikely to recover.  I've had that happen a few times, and it sucks.  

Like you said, back up a little, get more of a feeling for things, and then progress slowly.  You'll get there.

pcake's picture
pcake

there are several reasons to bake with spelt.  one is that people like me, who are wheat intolerant, can for some reason digest spelt.  some people feel there are additional health benefits to spelt that wheat doesn't have (i have no clue if that's true), and some people like the taste or like the taste when combined with other flour like rye.  there are probably additional reasons, as well, but these are ones i see mentioned frequently.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

It sounds like you might be baking in the UK; is that right? In which case, your flour will likely be different from the flour that Trevor uses in his videos on Breadwerx. UK flour tends to absorb water differently so an American recipe using North American flour might end up different from yours. Trevor is also a very experienced baker and much more used to working with high-hydration sourdoughs. And I wouldn't try the overnight autolyse until you are more experienced, as it can turn your dough to soup if the conditions aren't just right.

So here are a couple of pointers from me:

  • Stick to 65% hydration or lower until you are comfortable handling dough (i.e. the weight in grams of the total amount of water is 65% of the weight in grams of the total amount of flour; this includes the flour and water in the starter)
  • If you are using someone else's starter, do you get it fresh every time? Has your friend just fed it so it is active and bubbling when you use it? Or are you maintaining some yourself? How? What's the feeding schedule, and how does it look? You won't get much in the way of good bread if the starter isn't strong to start with.
  • If you want to use some whole grain flour (whole wheat for example), sift it to get the bigger pieces of bran out, then use this bran as part of the 'flour' to feed the starter. This will soften it up a bit
  • If you want to do an autolyse, mix the flour and water to a rough mass, then let it sit for 30 minutes to an hour before adding the starter and salt. Or mix the flour, water and starter and let it sit, then mix in the salt. But make sure the salt is mixed in well
  • As a compromise between kneading and no-knead bread, try doing 10 stretch & folds (do you know what these are?), 10 minutes apart, a total of four times. See how the dough changes through this process. So, mix the dough (flour, water, starter and salt) until it's all well blended, then let it rest for 10 minutes. Do a set of 10 stretch & folds (see this little video for an example), cover it and let it rest for 10 minutes and repeat for a total of four sets.
  • Shape the dough the way Emmanuel Hadjiandreou does in this video.
  • Spelt is wheat. It's an older variety is all, and it's proteins (the ones that form gluten when water is added and the dough is worked) are simpler than modern wheats. This means it is easier for some people to digest, and the gluten structure is 'weaker' than that of modern wheats. It is very stretchy (extensible) but not very strong (elastic), so it's difficult to form it into a strong, springy ball. It also can ferment much more quickly than strong bread flour will, so the timing for the bulk ferment and the final proof will be quite different if you want to use 100% spelt flour.
  • If your dough is formed into a nice, taut ball with a good gluten 'skin' (smooth, unbroken surface with good tension), and your banneton (lined or unlined) is seasoned well with flour (mixture of brown rice flour and bread flour works well), the dough should not stick. However, that will take some practice!
  • Don't try too much at once. Stick with a simple white sourdough of a medium hydration and get the mixing, dough development, handling, shaping and baking down pat before changing one thing, like the blend of flour you use or the level of hydration.

Keep up the good work!

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

thanks for another detailed reply, much appreciated!  ill try and answer your questions.......

yes im in the uk, and ok, i wont try another overnight autolyse.  i actually found that part ok and i thought the longer the autolyse with a WW flour the better as itd soften the sharp bits.  if there can be detrimental results then i wont carry on with that until im more accomplished.

65% or lower it is for now then.

my starter was given to me by a friend, its an offshoot of his.  i maintain it myself, in fact i have two (the other one an offshoot from this one)  i work away for 4 or 5 days at a time so i have a starter at home and one at work.  because i cant maintain either of them daily i keep them in the fridge.  i take out what i need for a loaf (anything from 50g to 300g) and then refridgerate the remainder.  a few hours before i bake again i take it out the fridge and feed 50/50 white flour and tepid water.  the other one will be sat in the fridge for 5 or 6 days the same, and when i want to bake with it i d the same, out of the fridge and feed it a few hrs before.  this seems a good way of not wasting any by refeeding straight after ive removed some, and then binning half before i refeed again.  ive just read that back and it sounds complicated, i hope ive explained well enough for you to understand.

neat trick with the WW, i dont have a sieve but if i come across one thats what ill do.

ill try that S&F technique next loaf, thanks.

my issue with shaping it like the video is ive got a long banneton and dont wish to bake a round loaf.  how would you recommend shaping for a long one?  at present i stretch it twice the length of the banneton and then fold into thirds, crimp the seam and then stretch and rollto a sausage shape.  once its shaped i prove in the fridge overnight as that seems to give me a bigger margin to prevent mistakes :-)

ill get some rice flour next time im in the supermarket, thanks.

and yes, ill stick with the white SD for now :-)

thank you very much

chockswahay's picture
chockswahay

and if you are in the UK whizz round to Waitrose and buy some of their Canadian white bread flour, it really is very high quality and very strong so it will help you.  Leave spelt out for now:)

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

we have a waitrose a few miles away, ill get some of the canadian flour next time im in the area.

thank you

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

my starter was given to me by a friend, its an offshoot of his.  i maintain it myself, in fact i have two (the other one an offshoot from this one)  i work away for 4 or 5 days at a time so i have a starter at home and one at work.  because i cant maintain either of them daily i keep them in the fridge.  i take out what i need for a loaf (anything from 50g to 300g) and then refridgerate the remainder.  a few hours before i bake again i take it out the fridge and feed 50/50 white flour and tepid water.  the other one will be sat in the fridge for 5 or 6 days the same, and when i want to bake with it i d the same, out of the fridge and feed it a few hrs before.  this seems a good way of not wasting any by refeeding straight after ive removed some, and then binning half before i refeed again.  ive just read that back and it sounds complicated, i hope ive explained well enough for you to understand.

 dont know what happened there.......i typed a reply underneath my quote but it hasnt come out in the post.  ill try again!

 just to revisit my starter regime, im finding that when i come back to the refridgerated starter aftr 4 or 5 days theres a layer of hooch on the top.  am i right in thinking i just stir it back into the mixture rather than draining and refeeding?

and to save waste, say if ive got 600g starter, would i get the same result by refeeding just 50g flour/water rather than draining 300g and refeeding the same weight?

thanks

 

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

That is an awful lot of starter. If you feed 600g of starter with just 50g water + 50g flour that is a very poor feed. Keep that up and your starter will struggle. The yeast population will be low. It'll become very acidic and will perform poorly.

Right now I have about 50g starter sitting in my fridge. Which I can either feed then use or take some off to build a levain.

sadexpunk's picture
sadexpunk

i think we went for 600g as a lot of recipes state to use 300g, and i always thought you used half and kept refeeding half etc.  if i use 300g in a recipe (which is my usual loaf), then would you suggest a 400g starter?  use 300, keep 100 in the fridge for a few days, then when im ready to bake again top up with 300g again and let it do its thing for a few hours?

oh, and the hooch........ stir it back in?

thanks

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Or a variation might be to keep 30g in the fridge and when needed feed it 150g water + 150g flour and allow it to mature. When mature use 300g in the recipe you're following and return the 30g to the fridge which can keep for a few days for when you need it next. And repeat.

The reason why I prefer the way I've just given is that it's a better feed which will encourage a stronger starter and will build up the yeast population.

The way you have described is perfectly fine too! But either way both are far better then feeding a huge amount of starter with a little water and flour to call it a feeding.

You can even keep less and build it up in two stages. Very good if it's been a long time since the last feed.

If you wish for a more tangy starter then stir the hooch back in. If you prefer a milder starter then carefully pour it off.