Mouse holes
Ive been trying to make sourdough for the past week or so. The first one I made was a pancake (almost no oven spring) because I didn't shape it correctly after the bulk fermentation.
Anyway this time I shaped it nice, the oven spring looked good. It tasted alot more chewy than the last time ( I used king arthur bread flour instead of generic all purpose ) However it has huge holes in the loaf. I'm not really sure what the cause is??
Looks good :)
Nice oven spring :)
Huge mouse holes. :(
Other Observations:
The cooked bread seems too dense still especially at the bottom of the loaf - Not sure if this is a sourdough thing or my yeast isn't aggressive enough. It doesn't seem to be rising much in the banneton after the shaping compared to other videos I have watched on the subject.
I was using tap water for my starter feeds every day. I would feed it around 7:30 am and put it in my ~80F proofer all day. It peaked around 1:30 pm - 2:00pm, fall down but not back to the original level. Next day it would have almost a brownish crust forming on top so I would discard that and weigh out the next days feeding. I have since started using king arthur all purpose unbleached / wheat instead the generic brand from my local store. In addition I am also using purified water in the feed now. I keep the jugs of purified water in my proofer as well. Today there is no brown "crust" on the starter and it fell back down to the original level (first time I've seen this in over a week of feedings)
On the recipe and method. To me it looks like the starter or bulk ferment hasnt been properly timed.
This is the basic country loaf out of the first tartine book. I cooked this on a pizza stone in the oven and put water in a roasting pan to create steam however my oven vents it too fast. So i purchased a cast iron combo cooker and will retry the recipe.
What would happen if the gluten was under developed?
We need more information. Your starter seems to be doing the right thing. The vigor seems to be there, although we all could pay more attention to the timing of starter, proofing, final rise.
The disparity between the top and bottom of your loaf implies problems with your oven temperature; too much spring at the top and not enough at the bottom. What kind of oven are you using? What temperature? How long do you preheat? Are you baking on a stone? Do you preheat your stone? Are you pre-steaming?
These days I use a regular-sized consumer electric oven with a quarter pan full of rocks sitting off of the bottom of the oven on 5 kiln spacers. I have a large baking stone sitting on the mid-to-bottom self position. I preheat the oven 25-50 degrees higher than my initial temperature for one hour, then turn it to the initial temperature about 10 minutes before peeling the loaves directly onto the stone. I pre-steam or steam or both depending upon the bread that I am baking by squirting a SuperSoaker onto the rocks before or during baking.
If you are baking on an unheated baking stone or placing the loaves too high in the oven or have a very nonuniform oven, then it is easy to get the results that you have.
Also review good stretch and fold techniques in case you are not handling the dough uniformly.
B.B.
I'm a bit puzzled by your description of your starter. I've never heard of a brown crust forming on a starter that quickly; it's a bit strange. When you say it peaks - do you mean it doubles in size? Triples? How old is the starter? What hydration? How does it smell (like yeast, like wet flour, like milk or like vinegar)?
Try this - make a loaf of the bread using a poolish (same hydration as the sourdough starter, but made with flour, water and about 1/8 tsp of dry yeast for each loaf). Wait for the poolish to be bubbly and risen (4 to 6 hours), then mix the dough as the recipe says, but add another 1/8 tsp of dry yeast to the final dough.
Otherwise, handle the dough exactly as you did for this last bake. That will help you understand if it's a problem with your handling / shaping or with your starter. I strongly suspect that your starter doesn't have a good enough population of yeast, and additionally that the gluten was not properly developed through mixing / stretching & folding/ or whatever method. Check out some of Trevor Wilson's videos on Breadwerx.com to see if your dough looks like his.
Good luck, and keep baking!
Im keeping my starter in a proofer around 78F around the clock with 24 hour feedings of 1:1:1 ratios.
I think there was two issues the last bake.
1. I used a pizza stone and a roasting pan with boiling water - the oven vented it out too fast and it wasnt consistent heat on the top and the bottom. I have since purchased a combo cooker.
2. I think my gluten was under developed.
I watched Trevors video on youtube and did roughly 15 mins of mixing like he did. Boy what a difference that made. It was like a complete dream to work with after that. Its cooking now. Will post updates :D
78F around the clock with 24 hour feedings of 1:1:1 ratios.
Drop the temp to around 75°F. Feed 1:5:5 and wait for a first peak before discarding & feeding again.
What is happening is that the starter eats thru the food quickly at warm temps in the proofer and the bacteria is getting the overhand in what should be a balance act between yeast and bacteria. I bet the hungry starter tastes very sour. Problem is the yeast population stays low and with each underfeeding reduces over time.
Be sure to use a starter jar with about 5 x headspace in the jar for starter expansion.
When the starter is happy, most problems disappear.
The proofer I built from scratch so I bake like a crazy man. I dropped the temperature to 75F so it will sit around 73F to 75F on the top shelf and roughly 2 degrees cooler on the bottom.
How much starter would you recommend I use? I've been doing 100g starter, 100g 50/50 all purpose / wheat, and 100g water?
I've been using these containers for my starter. Do you think this will hold a 1:5:5 feeding?
My loaf just came out of the oven and it looks worlds better.
Too late to cut into it. Gonna have to wait till tomorrow
Looks very much to me like you've sorted the problems, judging from the exterior of that last loaf! I'm curious to see the interior crumb when you post back. :) So the biggest difference between your first photo and the last I'm gathering is you spent more time developing the gluten through additional folds, and you used a combo-cooker rather than just an open baking stone?
Those two changes in tandem would indeed make a world of difference.
Here is the interior
Its still denser than normal bread but I dont know if thats a sour dough thing. For these loaves i used the cheapest flour I had so I could try Trevors method and get better at wet dough handling. They might be lower on the protein % it doesnt say on them.
The holes are much better. Without knowing your schedule and ambient temps no one can say for sure, but I wonder if it may have overproofed a tad coupled with too little degassing. You might try shortening the bulk ferment a bit and dividing slightly earlier, making sure not to create and very large air-pockets whilst forming the loaves. I've found that my best oven springs are when I divide and form a bit earlier, then retard the final ferment and bake them the next morning straight from the fridge. Many variables, of course. :)
Quickness is key for spring as well - getting the dutch-oven out of the oven, the loaf in and scored, and the dutch-oven back into the oven as quickly as possibly so you maximize the that initial temperature shock to the dough. Baking from the fridge helps as well because the proofed doughs can't relax and spread as much when they're cold, giving you more time to prep and score the loaf before loading it into the dutch-oven (or other vessel).
Do you let it come up to room temperature at all before putting in the oven?
I usually heat up the combo cooker to 500F for 20 mins, load it and drop the temp to 450F covered for 20 minutes, then 25 minutes uncovered.
Nope - I normally take them from the from the fridge just a minute before I pull the cooker out while I'm getting everything ready, quite cold. Makes not difference to the final bread at all for the loaves I've made except the surface is usually more blistered and I get more spring - both things that I'm looking for.
For this batch I did 3.5 hours at 78-82F for the bulk ferment with folding every 30 mins. Then divided and pre shaped, rest for 30 mins, final shaping. One loaf was proofed at 78-82F for 3 hours then into the oven. The other one is in fridge and I will cook it here shortly.
That sounds a tad long for that high an ambient temp. Did you do a poke test before loading? How did it look?
When the final proof is room temp, your baking window is significantly shorter than when the final is retarded (cold)... another reason I do it this way for everyday sorts of breads - it just allows you a far, far larger window for the bake without overproofing - about 6 -12 hours of leeway or so formula depending), rather than just an hour or two at most at room temp.
In any case, you're closing in on a perfect loaf! :D
(Incidentally, my every day loaves are usually based loosely on the Tartine formula, and the times you mentioned for this batch you've made for your 1st and 2nd ferments are roughly what I'd expect to be good for my kitchen, which is almost always between 68-70degF... you're a full 10 degrees warmer. )
This is the recipe for the basic country bread from the book. I built my own proofer and basically put it in for the time and temperature he mentioned in the book.
The poke test looked good last night when I cooked the first one.
Huh.... (you got me to pull the book out again) you're right. It's been a year since I've been in that book much. My scenario may be I often put in a bit more levain at the mix. At any rate, try retarding the 2nd proof. All my best loaves are done that way, and I like the flavor better to boot. Even with holes and a flatter loaf (and I've had a good few) the bread is still delicious and inexpensive. :)
The towel allows enough evaporation that the starter surface dries out quickly. If you were to use plastic wrap or the container's original top, that would slow down the evaporation quite a bit.
Paul
Everything I have read said to loosely cover them. I could loosely cover them with the plastic top?
is half a sandwich bag (or the whole two layers) and a rubber band tight enough to keep out Drosophila melanogaster (fruit flies) and loose enough to let out any gas.
Start with 28 g And 140g each flour and water. 1+5+5= 11. 300/11= 28. 28x5=140
To Clarify on my earlier comment.
The night before I'm ready to bake I portion out roughly 50g of starter, 200g of the 50/50 mix, and 200g of purified water at roughly 80F. Then I let it ferment in the kitchen. My kitchen right now sits around 60F at night so I usually need to throw it in the proofer for 2 hours in the morning before its ready to be used.
Doing what I listed above would you still recommend the 1:5:5 2 feeds a day schedule?
the same feed Ratio? No, I would suggest making the levain earlier in the day while the kitchen is still warm and then "retard" it in the cool 60° kitchen overnight. One feeding per day.
...and make sure it is fermenting when you turn off the lights!
From the crumb shot... I see the same problem...large holes ( a tad smaller) and dense crumb between them. Gotta get those yeasts working for you (the lazy buggars) Get them populating your starter sooner and stronger. You might even try working with a wetter mother/seed starter in cool temps, just use more of in when mixing dough and add less water to the dough. Ex: Try adding 200g of your recipe water to the levain while it is warm and growing to help with yeast fermentation and see what it does.
By the way, you did give the impression the seed starter spends its entire life in the proofer. While in there, that's the time to give it a good feeding of 1:4 or 1:5 and let it peak out about 4x the volume (unless very wet of course) before reducing and feeding it again. Add a little yeast to the first few discards to use in baking if desired.
to get back to the bubbles... the crumb shot looks more like my dough (if you slice it open with a sharp knife --quickly) when the dough is about 3/4 bulk proofed. The yeast are just beginning to gas up the loaf and collect into areas making these big bubbles. Folding to trap more gas everywhere in the dough would be the next step if the raw dough would look like this. Try cutting into your fermenting dough ever so often just to look at the inside. See what is happening so you can compare it to the bubbles next to dough container (if it's see-thru.). Take a good look (and whiff) then slap the dough ends back together and fold the dough. Let your dough show you what's happening.
Hope I've spurred a few ideas and things to try.
So the density is from the yeast not being fully active and too short of a bulk fermentation? If my yeast are not as active as they should be that could explain how its not ready under ideal environment.
The starter in mention does live in the proofer but I dropped the temperature like you said earlier to 75F and It seems to take around 12 hours to finally collapse. It is now more than doubling the initial starter level. Not sure if this is a good indication or not in terms of yeast growth. I have been only feeding it once per day still and was thinking i should do 2x a day like you suggested. Also I was thinking I should start doing the 1:5:5 feedings on that one like you suggested and see the difference in the bread. I have another 300g starter in the fridge that I will feed weekly. That one is a 1:1:1 starter.
There are so man factors with this and this is all still new to me so I really appreciate your help.
yep, sounds weak in the yeast department. Feed it at peak not when it has fallen down in order to boost yeast, a couple of repeated feeds ought to do it. I might reduce the starter down to 10 grams when using the proofer and feeding 40 or 50g flour while boosting yeast. Sounds like you can squeeze twice a day feeds in if it peaks and collapses in 12 hours. Feed again and notice the time it takes to rise shortening and rising more. :). You can also gradually lower the proofer temp once the yeast is plentiful.
I've been doing what you said and it seems like its been doing alot better. I have two starters going, one using 10g and one using 30g. They are both doing equally good. Both are now more than doubling. Long term whats the best option for feeding them? I'm going through a lot feed flour every day keeping them happy :)
when you can easily increase the smaller one when you need more starter? Are they both fed the same ratios?
how much sourdough baking do you do? Roughly and how often?
"Cheapest flour"?
Did anyone else pick up on this or did I miss something?
Your apparent crumb structure screams lack of gluten development. Are you using bread flour? Sorry if you said that and I missed it.
You cannot possibly learn the nuances of bread baking from gaps in your technique while using inappropriate flour. If your substrate will not properly register the effects of rising, proofing, formulating, kneading, stretching, folding, shaping, oven spring, then you will be blind to how all of these things are determined or not by your technique.
I do have bread flour but for that batch I used cheap all purpose flour instead of the KA bread flour. I was trying to work on handling wet dough which I think I have a good grasp on now. I was going to make another loaf tomorrow using the bread flour.
So a few days ago I decided to use some of my discard starter to make a new starter using that cheap all purpose flour. Well the yeast died off in it within a few days. Today it sat in the proofer for the entire day and didn't rise. I guess the yeast dont have an appetite for that crap :p
Funny, though. Sorry to be a constantly 'gloomy gus'.
AP flour is actually better than bread flour for starters because yeast metabolize starch, not protein (pastry flour is best but often too expensive).
Your post implies that the sick culture was an offshoot of your culture, so you still have an active culture?
I am not aware of any flour that can sicken a culture - as long as it does not have additives or is contaminated. A shot of rye flour for a few cycles is often the cure for a drooping starter,as long as ambient temp is reasonable and 12 hour feeding cycles are maintained.
Cultures are pets. They do well with regular attention.
Sometimes our kitchen explorations are unexplainable but always much more entertaining than buying bread.
BB
I use KA AP / Wheat for my regular feed flour. Yes i still have an active starter but I like to experiment with different flours etc when discarding. Its fun for me to see what works and what doesn't. Like my own science experiment :) I also have some rye and spelt flour I just haven't gotten around to messing with them yet.
That being said switching to 12 hour feeding schedule seems to have helped my active starter a great deal.
Sounds like you are doing what most of us do, including messing around. : )
If you want to put your culture into slow motion so you can feed it only once per day, try reading about what the bakers of old did before refrigeration: they added a careful amount of salt to retard the culture. I haven't used this on a regular basis, just once or twice.
Just be aware that Anything we do to the culture - salt, refrigeration, hydration - will necessarily affect some bacteria and/or yeasts more than others and it will affect the population of the culture and therefore performance or taste, or both (after enough cycles, like a week or so). Higher hydration, for example, favors sourness.
Happy baking!
BB