The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Various croissants + Abel's Pain Vienoisse

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Various croissants + Abel's Pain Vienoisse

As several other member's have bit the Abel bug I thought it's about time to give it a shot. This was a half ditched effort since I couldn't locate my loaf tins and so had to go free form. Not disappointed, thos of course was an unfocused experiment more-or-less just to see how it would turn out as a side bake against croissants with more attention to the croissants. Since they (croissants) take a good bit of oven kick, I think the pain vienoisse turned out a little too dark - I even removed it from the oven at around minute 5 to allow the croissants to take on he heat and then returned it later at a lower temp. Problem was that after 5 minutes it was already a bit too dark. I think this loaf needs a super short hot kick as in 3 minutes around 425 then a longer warm bake say 20-25 at around 375. That's what I would soon the next take. But anyway here's the results for those interested ;)

Comments

kendalm's picture
kendalm

 

 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Getting better consistency especially in regards to size. With croissants, the sheet can easily be thicker in places which causes some to weigh considerably more than others. This batch saw all around 100g after bake (excluding any with filling). Additionally getting 7 steps on each seems easier with each iteration (again excluding ones with filling). A nice bulbous cross section and open crumb - some a little too cavernous but so far hotting hydration at about 53%, 1.5 hour final proof at 76f and a good 450f kicker for 5 mins seems to work out pretty well to get nice rise -

 

 

 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The Pain Vienoisse looks just great!  I think the turning point in understanding how to handle the dough and the timing came from Abel's response to my posting asking him for some juicy details.  But I see that you didn't use a baking tin.  Hmm, a good idea!  Now that I'm back home and knocking off the last of the cinnamon raisin breads I've been toying with for the in-laws, it's time to get back to some FWS & occasional yeast. I've had this bread in mind for tomorrow for days now.  Your posting now energizes me all the more.  How fortuitous.

So... what kind of blade did you use and what was the dough weight?  Do tell!   I see a double edged razor blade in one picture, but I'm inclined to go to my ceramic, which I've never used for scoring before.  I already know that a curved lame won't do the job here, need to get the score deep on this one.

You need to be careful.  This bread hobby thang could be habit forming...

kendalm's picture
kendalm

it was 200g - not totally the same recipe as Abel - this is my formula for croissants

- AP flour 100% (eg 500g)

- butter 20% (eg 100g)

- Sugar 10% (eg 50g)

- Salt 2% (eg 10g)

- IDY 3% (eg 15g)

- Water 53% (265g double hydration split and hold ~5% for final mix)

- Levain 10% (50g)

 

There are all sorts of variations of this dough many with milk and eggs in which case they often do about half the butter so ultimately whichever variant you go for there's similar fat amounts. I just prefer this because the dough doesn't feel so heavy and I've had better results personally with this water and butter centric version - all a matter of personal preference (plus its much easier to remember the quantities)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Edit update: March 7 below

Well, I went through with my bake yesterday.  Kept to original formula and steps, except for using a rye levain instead of an AP.  Here are two photos.  The first is just after I loaded the dough into the tins, and the second is, of course, post-bake.

  

With the exception that I was expecting a little more activity from the amount of IDY, everything went swimmingly by the time that I scored the dough and loaded them.  Using a ceramic blade, the deep scores were quite easy to achieve.

Now, where the rubber meets the road - in my 78 degree kitchen it took a full 3 hours for the dough to rise enough to break even with the top of the tin.  That was my first indication that something was rotten in the state of Denmark.  Longer still for the dough to peek out over the top.  The bread had zero oven spring.

Of course, this could be me.  Sure, why not?  However, thinking back to the few prior cinnamon-raisin loaf pan bakes, those had no oven spring either.  My simple conclusion is to look elsewhere for a culprit.  As you know, I just about never bake with IDY, only when it is suggested in very small doses for a bit of a boost.  So small in fact, that I usually eliminate it.  Or, so small that when I use it and don't notice that it may have had no effect.

So my conclusion is that my 3+ year old refrigerated SAF Red bag, opened 3+ years ago, had expired long long ago and I never noticed it before, 'cause I don't use it.  But this bread, as well as the aforementioned cinnamon raisin breads, do use prodigious amounts of IDY.

Today it goes into the rubbish bin, and I'll take a trip to pick up a fresh bag.  And then run this again.  If I get the same result, I'll know it is me and not the yeast.  At this stage, I can't just write it off.

But I sure was pleased with the scoring and was expecting great things.  Oh, well, it'll make some great toast...

alan

Edit update: March 7.

I ran this again yesterday with a new batch of IDY.  As suspected, the bulk rise time was completely different.  Instead of the ~3 1/2 hours to peek past the top of the tin, it took only 2 yesterday.  What a significant difference.  However, same issue with no oven spring.  A head-scratcher.  

After looking again at your formula above (and understanding that it is a croissant formula here) I went back to Abel's original posting and then noticed that mine was incorrect.  That's pretty rare for an "anal alan" when it comes to dotting i's and crossing t's.  What I had wrong was my hydration, and I was running this with an overall hydration of 52% instead of ~60%, so my dough was much stiffer than his.  And I decided to bump up the IDY from 2.4% to 3%.  I'll stay with his formula, maintain the milk, and keep the butter and sugar at the levels that Abel prescribes. 

Okay, time for another round today with the new mods.  This change in hydration will make the mix and rolling out of the dough much easier, and I should see more rise in the oven.  Will get crackin' on this later today.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

ROFL Alan, I have some year old stuff that instill use but need to 1.5 the quantity as it has obviously degraded so3 years old - i feel bad for you but it's funny as heck (such is the torment we home bakers must endure).

 

as for your adjustment to 3% that's a good mark - you can also use ADY but I have found that IDY is more reliable and despite some early negative experiences I have come to really respect it - amazing stuff and also discovered that fresh yeast is actually more similar to IDY in terms of acidity etc. It just becomes difficult when dealing with day plain bread and small batches where your percentages equate to .25g making measurements near impossible but for this type of dough 15g for example can be measure quite reliably.

 

I am planning nother bout soon and looking forward to trying those alternating cuts. Also been thinking about trying a hybrid lamination - I am interested to try absort of cross between this loaf and a croissant. Despite he fact that last weeks loaf was fully consumed I found it a tad boring on the inside and wonder of some flakyness could be introduced. It might be wise to try a few things on top of the standard here so as to keep the target in the cross hairs but abels original list sure has spurred a lot of thought and looking forward tonsharing more soon ...

 

 

 

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Dag nab it - still no oven spring!  The hydration was bumped up to 60% overall and that made for a really nice feel to the dough, much silkier and easy to work with, roll out, etc.  IDY from the new batch was at 3%, and the bulk fermentation continued to quicken.  All systems were go.  And as before, the scoring was a cinch with a ceramic blade.  I decided to eliminate the steam from the oven because I'll take a guess that most enriched doughs don't need it - like croissants, for instance.  

At this point, I'll throw in the towel on trying to duplicate Abel's magnificent finished product and move back to other things now in the queue.  I've done what I could with it for now.

Still, it makes a lovely and interesting bread even without the oven rise, just a short and slightly dense version.  A bit on the bland side, so on a next run, whenever that is, I'll add either WW or rye.  But toasted it is delightful, and as Abel pointed out this bread is more about being a sandwich bread than anything else.  So call me frustrated because at this moment there is something that I'm missing, now that all of the other  "issues" have been addressed.  But I'm not a bakery shop owner with this as a must have on my products board, and I'll leave it at that.

Here is my "final" run.

PS laugh all you want, I can take it!

albacore's picture
albacore

Well, if it's any consolation, I got practically no oven spring either! In the final proof I got the shoulder of the loaf up to the top of the tin and baked it.

The top of the loaf domed some more, but the sides didn't rise anymore. Probably the 10% butter I guess. As long as you know what's going to happen, it's not a problem - just size the dough to the tin accordingly - but that's hindsight, of course! To be honest, I never trust oven spring with tin loaves anyway.

It's certainly a tasty loaf when toasted!

Lance

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Will reply in more detail later but to answer he lame question - I just held the double edge with no handle. The plan was to use an olfa knife which I usually have several laying about but due to the spontaneous nature of this, couldn't find the Olfa and so just grabbed the double edger and slashed deep - more than anything just wanted to get this project moving and even though it was half witted no thought bake, it at least gets some additional knowledge out there. Anyhoo, more later (entertaining younguns at the moment)

Abelbreadgallery's picture
Abelbreadgallery

Good job! Congratulations.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Abel makes a celeb appearance. Obviously youve noticed by now that your post sparked a lot of interest (for good reason). I was just remarking that I think this loaf requires some gentle heating - btw on my first try I found the crust to be rather thick - maybe i will post some more pics soon bit judging from your bake - they were rather light - I also wonder if you egg washed them - right at the moment I started brushing his loaf I thought doh! leave it dry !

Abelbreadgallery's picture
Abelbreadgallery

Hi Kendalm. Yes, you can egg-wash, or just paintbrush with some milk before baking. You can play baking at different temperatures and times. 180ºC, 210ºC or 230ºC you get different results.