Loaves deflate from basket to dutch oven
I'm noticing that I get great, tall-proofed loaves after an overnight proof in the fridge, fill the basket beautifully with large bubbles in the dough. However, when I go to transfer them into my dutch oven for baking I notice two things:
1) The dough almost always sticks to the banneton - I always lightly dust the banneton with flour but I don't line it with any linen
2) I tip the dough out of the basket into my hands and then *carefully* place it into the hot dutch oven. It actually becomes more of a short free fall as I lower it as close as I can into the DO without touching it. By the time it is in place, part of the wonderfully proofed dough is touching/sticking to the side and I watch as the height slowly dissipates and it become more flat.
Any tips or tricks? I read on Breaddit that someone pops the proved loaves into freezer for 15 minutes before baking and then it holds its shape and volume during the transfer.
I purposely wrote over fermenting, because it may well be that you Bulk Ferment went too long.
In my experience, if you take a properly Bulk Fermented dough and place in a lined banneton wrapped in a plastic bag to prevent drying, and then place on the bottom shelf (coldest place) on the refrigerator it will hold at least 12 hours. <Sorry about the run on sentence>
Another thought. Is your refrigerator cold enough to slow down yeast activity? My bread doesn’t expand much if at all during the cold retard.
You might get better results with a “bread sling”. Gently remove dough from the banneton onto a piece of parchment paper. Then lower the sling into the Durocher Oven gently.
Never heard or a short freeze before handling the cold proofed dough. I’ve made a mental note to try that. I like the sound of it. Thanks
Dan
As I’m new to this baking world, I didn’t even think that the bulk could have gone too long. I was baking Pain de Campagne from FWSY which called for a bulk ferment of about 5 hours. I gave it 4.5 before shaping and into the fridge. It definitely rose a lot. The recipe calls for about 2.5 times but it’s honestly hard to measure even in a clear 12-qt bucket since the dough after the last fold is not evenly flat. Any suggestions on how to know when the dough has fermented long enough.
Intersting point about the fridge. It definitely wasn’t on the lowest part. So you’re saying it should rise a whole lot overnight?
Ill definitely try the dough sling. This seems like a good solution to lowering it in.
In my experience the dough does not rise or expand much, if at all in the refrigerator. The cold temperature greatly slows down the activity of the yeast. Keep in mind I don’t bake much with commercial yeast. I use a sourdough starter.
I don’t own FWSY. But I know it is well thought of. Is it possible you used too much yeast?
Here is a recent discussion dealing with bulk fermentation. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/52246/bulk-fermentation-when-it-done Important - keep in mind when reading recipe instructions, “bulk ferment for x amount of hours” that your home environment is probably not identical to the author’s. Room and also dough temperature has a huge affect on the ferment.
You said, “The recipe calls for about 2.5 times but it’s honestly hard to measure even in a clear 12-qt bucket since the dough after the last fold is not evenly flat.” Eye the bucket through the clear sides and estimate were the dough would level out if it wasn’t domed. Mark level with rubber band or a piece of tape.
Dan
I demonstrate Dan's bread sling here:
https://youtu.be/l0Ob6v8GpM0?t=3m46s
Also consider rice flour for dusting the baskets.
You can grind your own rice, if you have something to grind it. Coffee, herb, grain grinder/mill. We all have rice, not many have rice flour though. Rice flour prevents sticking much better than bread flour. Because of dough sticking in the banneton, I often opt for a liner. Any smooth (no texture), soft fabric should do. The thinner the better.
Thanks for the video Knormie.
Yes to the rice flour for the bannetons, and the parchment sling for lowering into the hot pot. I always turn my boules out onto parchment pieces then use them as a sling to lower the boule into the hot pot. No problem.
A question to investigate though - is the dough deflating or simply spreading when you turn it out into the pot? If it's deflating (losing gas) then it is quite possibly overproofed. If it is spreading without losing gas then it's probably a lack of structure. The dough might benefit from more folding and stronger shaping. I'm starting to sound like a shill for Trevor Wilson, but you would probably find all kind of insight in his book which you can download from breadwerx.com.
sticks to the basket and then it deflates when you score it, then you know it is over proofed. If I use mire than 10-12% pre-ferented flour in the levain, my bread over proofs in the fridge after 12 hours in the summer and 15 in the winter here in Phoenix, AZ. But if it does, all you have to do is re-shape it and let it proof again on the counter if it SD but if it is a yeast bread you can likely get away over proofing it more than one time. The only thing that happens is that the holes are smaller in the crumb and the crust may not be as brown when baked to 208F on the inside
Proper shaping can also have an effect on structural strength of the proofed loaf.
I keep a piece of waxed paper in my clay baker just for flouring. Sift rice flour over it into the bannetons, and then lightly coat the shaped loaf before loading into the basket. If I flour both even the wettest loaf never sticks. If I forget to dust the loaf, it sometimes sticks in spots.
I have 3 clay bakers (no DO) and have good success with a parchment sling to transfer from the banneton. Crumple it up and then flatten to help remove big creases that could cut into the dough. My first clay attempts without the sling ruined what had been nicely shaped loaves. Lay the paper on the peel (or a flat cookie sheet), place on top of the banneton, invert, score, and transfer to the baker/DO or stone. Scoring well in a hot pot is difficult and dangerous.
Through TFL I've learned to get those loaves into the hot clay slightly before they're fully proofed. Now they don't flatten, and get a nice rise due to steam from the initial minutes with the lid. Good luck!
Please explain more. “Crumple it up and then flatten to help remove big creases that could cut into the dough.”
Dan
with more whole grains in them. I still say knowing when to put it in the oven and having the oven ready right then is the hardest part of baking by far. Knowing when the dough is properly bulk fermented is a close 2nd.
Thanks for the percentages DAB! Hadn't seen numbers before, but am trying to be better about baking before 100% proof. Now, where do I buy the gizmo that tells me 85-90%, rather than relying on these aging eyes of mine?
I'd noticed that folding parchment for my oval clay was a challenge to get flat/smooth in the corners, and if I didn't get it flat a couple of times it poked into the dough. Happened to see 5 minutes of Martha Stewart Baking recently; she demonstrated wadding up parchment into a ball and flattening it out again to get a good fit in a tall round pan - seems to work.
I’m baking this morning. I’m going to crumple the parchment right now so I don’t forget.
Dan
Thanks for the tip! It works better than I could have imagined.
It’s all the little things that add up to a big difference.
Dan