The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Gluten

old baker's picture
old baker

Gluten

So as I understand, gluten is the compound in dough the provides strength for structure.  Here's an interesting video showing the actual gluten developed in low and high protein flours.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEcvSc2UKA

Makes sense to me, the higher protein flour produces more gluten.  My thinking is that the amount of gluten in a given flour is limited by the protein content and after a certain point, no amount of additional time or kneading will increase it.  I would think that the flavor of bread is within the non-gluten portion.  A good test would be to bake the gluten shown in the video.  Bet it would rise with great structure, but  have little or no taste.

Any thoughts?  Or am I just now realizing what everybody else already knew ?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Kneading doesn’t increase gluten, it develops it.

You said, “A good test would be to bake the gluten shown in the video.  Bet it would rise with great structure, but  have little or no taste.” He used gas to inflate the gluten. In order for the gluten to rise it would need some sort of rising agent, such as yeast.

btw; nice video link.

Question, did you buy a steam oven yet?

Dan

clazar123's picture
clazar123

There! I said it out loud!

IMO, when you have flour and water, any gluten present will organize on its own. IMO,the purpose of kneading, especially a dry dough (50-65%), is to distribute the water in the dough so more gluten is in contact with it and can organize. More importantly, kneading-esp drier doughs or doughs with "gluten cutters" in it, is especially important to develop STARCHY GEL-the bubble walls in a bread's crumb-the window pane. Once you get into higher hydration, kneading is not as important for gluten development. It will organize on its own. Starchy gel should form, also, but may need some encouragement to deeply absorb the water-either time or mechanical manipulation(kneading). If you add a starch or tang zhong to dough, you have just added the starchy gel already made from an external source.

Gluten provides structure to hold the bubbles in place. Starchy gel provides walls to provide for multiple bubbles so we have a crumb and not just one big bubble held by a crust. Think of children's building blocks. Structures can be made with a lot of support (high gluten bread) and can be made taller, as a result. OR structures can be made with fewer supports. You can't build it as tall before it collapses on itself. High gluten flour provides a lot more holding power but is too chewy, IMO. Lower gluten flour,with starchy gel properly developed, provides more feathery,melt in the mouth (that's the starch) chew. Definitely my favorite. Sponge cake vs pound cake.

Have you ever had seitan? Meat substitute made with 100% gluten by mixing flour,water, letting gluten strands form and washing off starches. Look at this link.  In case that link doesn't work:

https://eatingrules.com/how-to-make-seitan/

 

Mix flour & water and cover with water to "allow the gluten to develop". Knead to "loosen up the starch". Seitan has been made like this for a LONG time. Bakers and seitan makers should talk more-they would learn about their ingredients from each other. That is why a forum like The Fresh Loaf is excellent. It brings bakers with multiple cultural and experiential lives together to talk and have "Ah Ha!" moments.

https://eatingrules.com/how-to-make-seitan/

Have fun-be curious-observe. The world is a curious place.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How does Seitan taste? What is the texture? 

I’d imagine it is 100% protein. Is that correct?

Does Seitan have any draw backs?

Also, doesn’t kneading or S&F align the gluten strands in a more organized network? I’m thinking, at this time, that hydration activates the proteins, but the two types of gluten (don’t remember their names accurately) will form in a haphazard arrangement.

Dan

”inquiring minds want to know”

old baker's picture
old baker

I'm certainly not an organic chemist nor a food scientist.  But is seems to me that gluten develops from the bonding of glutinen and gliadin.  This occurs in the presence of water and mixing (kneading).  Given enough water, time, and mixing, I suspect that there would be no additional gluten development, based on the limiting factor of the amounts of the primary components.

"Kneading doesn’t increase gluten, it develops it."  I agree, kneading equates to mixing.

I'm going to bow out now before I get any deeper in this subject.

And Dan, I have not gotten the steam oven.  Maybe sometime, but for now I can use other methods to trap/produce steam.  Like a pan inverted over the dough.  The steam oven is a want, not a need.  There are far cheaper ways to get a good crust.  If I was a large scale baker, it would probably pay off.  But I'm not and $5-6k is really not justified.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Two things need to happen...

  • 1: gluten development
  • 2: fermentation - the dough is saturated with enough yeast

Given enough time the gluten will develop all on its own when mixing flour and water. No kneading necessary. However.  You don't wish for the fermentation to be optimal before the gluten is formed otherwise the yeasts will begin to die off before the gluten has formed. You also don't wish for the gluten to form too quickly before the fermentation has been optimised because the gluten will begin to degrade. Gluten forms when flour and water are mixed but the flour begins to degrade. You need them to be completed in together! 

This is where needing comes into play. It's used to coordinate the two. Should the yeasts have done their job before the gluten is formed you'll get a flat loaf. So you need to speed things up by kneading.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How old are you Old Baker? I’m 66 and you’d have to be 90 or more to be considered old in my book {;-)

On a somewhat serious side. When I’m not using a DO or cloche, I’ve had phenomenal results by injecting steam into the oven vent (located at the top of the stove) using this device. The steamer was purchased for household cleaning, but does a great job for steaming an oven. No other method I’ve tried has come close to injecting that amount of steam. That is steam rising from the bottom vent on the oven door.

Dan

old baker's picture
old baker

Dan, let's just say I'm older than you but not old by your standards.

Getting off the subject of gluten foe a moment; what you're showing for a steam generator is the type of add-on I've been thinking about.  How do you access the oven vent?  My oven is built into an enclosure as part of the kitchen cabinets.  I'd probably have to extract the oven, possibly damaging the solid cherry woodwork.  Ms. Baker would frown on that.

Is your oven a  stand-alone type?  Tell me more; I like the idea.

Dave

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I bake in a stand alone home electric oven.

For some time I mulled over the idea of steam injection. Then I came upon this link  where Gary Turner peaked my interest about Steam Injection via the oven’s vent.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/395757#comment-395757  I searched for quite a while to locate my oven’s vent in vain. They can be well hidden. Finally, I searched the web for a repair schematic for my oven. It was pretty easy to find. In my case the vent was piped up to an opening just beneath the control panel that is located at the top of the oven.

Thank God I found the vent! I had begun ruminating the idea of drilling a steam port into the side of the oven ;-)

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

 1. development of gluten

2. dough strength

To quote Trevor wilson

”Dough strength does not only refer to the development of gluten”

He has very good sections on both in Crumb Mastery

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Leslie, please elaborate. ”Dough strength does not only refer to the development of gluten”

I don’t remember reading that. And I don’t understand the statement. What else affects the strength.

Danny

”inquiring minds want to know”

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

Dough strength part 1 page 71 part 2 page 74.

He explains it far far better than I ever could.  Trevor’s book had so many light bulb moments for me.  the part about strength was one of them! 

I am also re reading the book and getting even more from it.

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I don’t have a great memory, and I want desperately to recall Trevor’s information. I’m going to have to bite the bullet and print out his entire PDF. That way I can dog ear the pages and mark it all up. I started reading @ page 71 and when I looked up I was at page 94. This is my second (and some parts third) read. I genuinely hope that many people buy the book. In my opinion it needs to go into print.

Thanks Leslie...

Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I use the index a lot and when you click on it, it does take you to the page.  that’s a lot of printing if you print it out.

happy reading and baking Dan

Leslie

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I’m reading on a Kindle app on iPad. I’m a new Mac user and not very familiar with the operating system. My index is not linked to the corresponding pages.

Even though the book is large, I still plan to print it.

For the most part, Trevor’s explanations make sense to me. I prefer Trevor’s explanation more than the San Francisco’s Baking Institute linked in a post below as it pertains to dough strength. The SFBI talks about “tenacity”, and I don’t get it.

Dan

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Dough strength link from San Fran. Baking Institute 2004:

http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Thanks Clazar123 - you are a peach!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Very good article Clazar. But I think I need some help. I only considered elasticity when evaluating dough strength. Extensibility seems to imply the exact opposite. And tenacity, well I don’t have a real clue. 

Can you elaborate a little on this?

Dan

”inquiring minds want to know”

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

thanks for posting the link.  really good explanations here too.

Leslie