The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

First bake for 2018

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

First bake for 2018

Decided to mill some spelt and rye and use it in a simple 1:2:3 loaf and concentrate on open crumb and great oven spring.  My flour mix was 70% bread flour, 20% freshly milled rye and 10% freshly milled spelt.  

 I started off with a starter build of 1:2:3 late sunday afternoon.  Monday morning I built further 1:2:2 intending to use water at about 30°C but misjudged it and when I mixed it up it was more like 26°c. This was left at room temperature to mature.  Room temp started at 23°c.

 At 11 am mixed flours and water and left to autolyse until I was ready to carry on.  2 pm room temperature was 27°c, levain was ready so added the salt and levain to dough using Trevor Wilson’s gentle method.  left it to rest 15 minutes and did another round of gentle stretch and folds which were then repeated hourly (3 times) with a final one half an hour later before dividing and preshaping dough. After 30 minutes did final shape and placed in bannetons then retarded over night. Baked this morning at 230°c straight from fridge. One batard with 2 slashes, one with a single.  

 It is frustrating - it all went well but whilst I got a little oven spring, the dough spread more than I wanted!  Tastes really good though.  

 

Question #1:  did I not build enough dough strength? (was going to check for window pane but forgot)

Question #2:  is this a result of using freshly milled grain?  should I have reduced hydration a little - loving being able to mill grain with my Mockmill100 but still learning about how freshly milled grain responds.

Leslie

Comments

pul's picture
pul

Nice baking! I don't see any trouble really.

My experience is that spelt tends to proof much faster than any other flour type. Even though you used a small amount of spelt, it might still influence the final result. I had situations where my final bake looked more like a package rather than a loaf (still tasted great).

I also like the 1:2:3 ratio, and have been using it most of the time. This hydration level is good to work the dough even when there is rye in the mix.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I was aiming for more loft than I got! but that is what happens ... it may be the brand of bread flour that I used as well.  the dough was nice to work, not too sticky.

thanks pul, 

Leslie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Lovely bake. Nice start to 2018.

A usual 1:2:3 recipe using a 100% hydration starter would end up with a 71% hydration dough.

You had a two build starter with the first one being 1:2:3 and the second being 1:2:2. Not sure how much this would affect the final hydration. With the first build I don't know the hydration of your starter, the starter build is 2 parts water to 3 parts flour and even though the second build is with an equal feed I'm not sure where the hydration stands.

Freshly milled I would think needs less water so might be a good idea to hold some back which you can easily add if you think the dough needs it. How did the final dough feel?

Whatever the case you do have 30% flour of which would compromise the height of the dough as they are rye and spelt. So bear that in mind.

All the same I think you got a lovely loaf out of it.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

In my build I took 10 g starter, added 20 g water and 30 g flour and left it. Next build was 45g of this 90g water and 90 g flour.  I should have been more exact but wasn’t, I used the entire amount so was probably about 20g over the recipe.  My hydration was probably a bit higher than expected.

 I think you are right about freshly milled flour and I should have held some water back. the final dough was really nice, not too sticky and was not too hard to shape. I gave the autolyse 3 hours on purpose and judging whether not to use all the water at this early point is something I still need to figure out.  still it is a really nice bread, even if I am disappointed with the final “look” lol. next time I will hold back a bit on the water and see if that helps. 

thanks Abe, look forward to your next bake

Leslie

isand66's picture
isand66

Actually, fresh milled usually will absorb more water not less.  Spelt does have a tendency though to do the opposite.  Since you didn't use a big amount of Spelt it shouldn't have made much of a difference.  Your crumb looks great on this one.  Your shaping could be an issue, or as you said your bread flour may not be very strong.  You can also try doing some additional stretch and folds next time to build more gluten strength.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

about freshly milled grain‘s absorbency so maybe I need to spend some time to figure this out for the grain that I have here.  The dough (gluten.?) strength is definitely on my radar and Jim’s post about a thin crackly crust has a lot of info from mariana that I will take on board. I can see some experimentation happening.

there is a lot of really helpful stuff popping up at the moment!

look forward to your next bake too

Leslie

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Conflicting advice too. Sorry about that. 

Just done more research and it's the milling process that adds more moisture or something to that effect. 

Follow Ian's advice.  

PalwithnoovenP's picture
PalwithnoovenP

The crumb looks nice and soft.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and tastes really good.

Leslie

suminandi's picture
suminandi

So don’t change the hydration. You could try doing a tight preshape with a short rest before shaping ( and tighten the shaping also). And kneading or folding more near the start of the bulk might give more height, also. That said, this bread looks good and you said yourself that it tastes great. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I will say that fresh milled flour is much more thirsty than old stake bag flour.  71% hydration for this bread isn't too much but since the whole grains were rye and spelt - the two worst whole grains for gluten structure, which hate l.ong ferments and long retard s -  long anything really.

I think that you did too long a bulk ferment where you were trying to develop gluten that was really weak.  Rye and spelt both have lots of bad enzymes that love to break down gluten.  I think if you so 3 sets of stretch and folds after mixing on 30 minute intervals   then shape and retard with only a 30 minute rest.  Then only do a 8 hour retard all will be well.  If you would have had whole wheat and Kamut as your whole grains this wouldn't be an issue. 

It wasn't too bad to collapse and the crumb was very nice.  This is exactly what happens when the gluten is  slightly broken and it is over proofed a bit,  Still, great looking bread on the inside and great tasting too!  Well done and this is easy to fix.

Happy baking in 2018

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

would it be better to shorten the autolyse to say 1 hour? and

you are suggesting a pretty short bulk ferment, do you go by say a 30% increase in size before shaping? and

would you allow a short bench proof before the retard? I would need to do the final shape just before bedtime, lol!

thanks dabrownman for any tips, they are always great

Leslie

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

3 sets of S&F's all on 30 minute intervals then let sit for 30 minutes before shaping and into the fridge so 2 hours and 30 minuted form mix to fridge and then 8-10 hours max for retard..  30% sounds about right for bulk increase in volume.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I have just done a little experiment with the rye - I took 50 grams commercial rye flour added 50 grams water.  It was a very soft dough.  Then I took 50 grams freshly milled rye and added 50 grams water.  Straight way you could tell the freshly ground rye was much firmer, still soft but firmer.  After an hour not much change.  So after just over 2 hours I added 10 grams water to the freshly milled one to try and get a similar consistency.  Then added another 3 grams and then another 2 grams of water.  so if my math is ok that is 20% additional water to get the same consistency.  Now I know for sure  with the grain I have here (which may be different to what you get in the US) that the freshly milled is thirstier, just as you and Isand66 both have said. 

I will keep to the same recipe and repeat the bake and see how i go, and I will be giving the dough more stretch and folds than I have in the past.  Suspect I have not been getting enough strength in the dough. 

I have another little experiment going comparing 2 bread flours, lol today is a day of experimenting with gluten and flours!!

Thanks again for your help

Leslie

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I know about rye but didn’t think that 10% spelt would impact so much.  Must admit I got caught out a bit as had planned a shorter bulk ferment but couldn’t get to the dough earlier.  retard was probably 11-12 hours.  - shaping always needs more work too. Points well taken, I will repeat and see how I go.

thanks dabrownman 

Leslie

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Must taste delicious with the fresh-milled flour, which I'd like to try some day.

Happy New Year and Happy Baking, Leslie!

Yippee

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I am loving being able to mill my own grains.  Thought about it for months before seeing the demo on Mockmill 100. Mills are really expensive here so this was very reasonable and its foot print isn’t big.  very happy I bought it.

the flavour is definitely better and with all the goodies still in the flour, must be better for us too!  

happy baking and new year to you too

Leslie