Which mixer do you think would do a beter job at kneading 5 lbs of challah. The DLX or Bosch?
I have a Kitchen Aid with a 5 qt. bowl that I have had for 20 years and I find it does a good job. But if you want info. on Bosch and DLX try the SEARCH feature on the Fresh Loaf Home Page (top left of the page). I just now keyed in Bosch Mixer and got a number of hits. Take a look at what some of the folks who subscibe to TFL have submitted re: Bosch and there may some info. DLX, I didn't check. Another good source, if they have tested either of of the mixers (Bosch or DLX), is Consumer Reports on-line.
I have a Bosch Universal that I cannot get to work for me. All it will do is push the dough around in circles. I wonder if I need to make bigger batches of dough to make it work. Anyone with a Bosch having this problem or this experience with it?
This review does not cover the problem I am having.
I read that review as well before purchasing my Bosch Universal. It is thorough, but she makes the machine sound far more complicated than it is. I never had any of the problems she reported. More importantly, though, a Kitchenaid with its "fabulous reputation" cannot handle really tough or large batches of bread dough without being at enormous risk of breaking due to an internal gearbox made of plastic. For bread, you made a good choice buying Bosch.
As to your question, I have seen what you describe when using my machine. It is, like you said, more common with much smaller batches of dough. The machine truly shines when tackling large batches of dough that would kill a kitchenaid. However, I have found that even when the dough is being spun in circles, it is still being worked some. I really don't have much advice otherwise. Personally, I stopped seeing that problem early on. It stopped right after I got my scale and discovered I was over doing the flour by about 35-40% per scoop with no scale! My dough got more saturated, less dense, and since then the machine has not done that unless the dough was basically done and too developed.
So, my suggestions would be to check your hydration levels, and to try larger batches of dough. I hope you find you enjoy the Bosch soon.
With all due respect, the Kitchen Aid worm follower gear for the 6 quart model is made of a "strong alloy". In the past there have been problems with some K.A. plastic covers overheating, which K.A. has recently redesigned and replaced. I'm not saying the gear won't break (it has teeth and will strip under certain conditions, like any other gear) but, like I said, I have used mine for 20 years and never had a problem other than overheating after 15 minutes on med/high speed under heavy load. I don't doubt that Bosch makes a fine mixer. I respect your opinion re: the Bosch mixer and know that Bosch has an excellent reputation. I know little about the Bosch mixer but I have used Bosch automotive products for years and they're among the best. Germans are very good engineers. For what it's worth, here's a link re: the K.A. gear.
P.S. When I hit the lottery I'm going to buy a Hobart 12 or 20 quart (maybe both). In the meantime I'll keep knocking along with "Whitey" my old 5 qt. K.A. where large batches of dough ride up the dough hook and wrap around the drive shaft :).
I didn't know they fixed the gearbox problem, that's good to know. Last year when I was investigating mixer options I couldn't find a review by a bread baker that didn't report problems with the plastic cover overheating and breaking. It was for that reason I picked a Bosch, in fact. The design of the Bosch did take some getting used to, but it really does do a hell of a job mixing massive batches and much faster than recipes usually recommend. You are right, though, I have read that old Kitchenaids are nigh indestructible.
Yeah, I think I have a K.A. that was made 20 years ago (+ or -) when Hobart still owned the company and they made good equipment. Now they're cranking them (K.A.s) out like crazy. Seems like every store I go into that sells kitchen and baking supplies and appliances has 4 or 5 K.A. models on display. Anyway, you have made me think that maybe I should be seriously looking at the Bosch. I sometimes have to make my dough in 2 batches (4 large loaves) because of the limitation of the Kitchen Aid (bowl size, overheating with large batches and the dough riding up the dough hook). Like I said, half jokingly, I would love to have a Hobart 12 or 20 quart but am shy the $3,500.00 they're asking...and they weigh a couple of hundred pounds so it isn't something you just pick up and set up on the countertop. Thanks for the information, the Bosch sounds like a great piece of equipment. I do a lot of baking and I'm going to serously check it out.
I hate to make larger batches of bad bread while I learn how to bake, so hopefully weighing the flour will do the trick for me. Luckily I was given scales last Fathers Day.
Bobby, when I bought my DLX (the end of last September from Pleasant Hill Grain) we discussed the Bosch as well. There was an employee there who really favors the Bosch but she was having trouble mixing batches of dough that made only two loaves. She relayed the information to me that their mixer expert and customer service person told her to make four loaves. She asserted that the Bosch is a great mixer but it doesn't do as well with smaller batches. So give that a try.
Nancy55 - I haven't used the Bosch but I know people who have owned them and I never really hear a bad word about them. I think for bread dough you just can't beat a Bosch or a DLX type mixer although they both have their strong suits such as what I mentioned above about the Bosch and small-batch size. I absolutely love my DLX and without it I could not make some of the bread I am making without a huge struggle. My poor Kitchenaid mixer (which I loved) just is not made to handle bread dough in this way in addition to the fact that it has serious design flaws. It doesn't make sense to have to stop the mixer and lift the head to dump ingredients in the bowl - that just drove me crazy.
I would do as much research and talk to people that can tell you without bias what the strong points and the weak points of each mixer is based on what you want to make with it. You will read a review of the DLX mixer which rated it the lowest in the Cook's Illustrated comparison tests. That rating is absolutely insane and I will add that there is an artisan bread site that also discounts their findings. So that wasn't much help and thankfully I didn't listen to that review, in fact, I don't know what the tester of that DLX was thinking or doing.
The first time I used my DLX I fell in love for both bread and everything else and I haven't looked back. Hopefully you will get some more input from both DLX and Bosch owners to help you make your decision. Then I would advise you to call Pleasant Hill Grains who is a wonderful company and they can give you really good information to help you make up your mind.
ZB, did you look at the Bosch when you were deciding on the DLX? They seem like similar machines in most respects. I'm leaning towards the DLX and want to make a purchase soon. I have a 25 year old KA that has never failed me but like you the idiosyncrasy's of using it drive me nuts plus I want to make larger batches from time to time and the KA isn't up to it.
Also, do you have the grain mill attachment? I don't have a grain mill and would like to start learning to use fresh ground flours.
I purchased a used Universal about 4 months ago and use it every weekend for anywhere from 4 to 20 loaves of bread.
My doughs range from 6 cups of flour to 12 cups of flour. The mixer does a very good job of either.
I read the review mentioned above and I don't seem to have those types of problems. Any bowl will require scraping, so I don't think THAT is a problem.
I have a Sunbeam stand mixer which I bought and used three times. It now sits under the counter, all alone and crying from lack of attention.
There is a mixer-users group on yahoo that might provide some insight on the mixer. There are passionate users of several different brands.
RE: KA It appears from my readings that the old KA, built by Hobart, was a truly industral strength machine, but that the NEWER ones seemed to have lessened in quality. I am NOT speaking from personal experience, mind you, but just from gleanings from several of the baking/bread groups to which I belong.
However, that is not the sole domain of mixers. I bought a meat slicer last year (very well known long time brand) and the drive gear stripped teeth in 3 months. Took them 9 weeks to get me a replacement gear.
Nancy, Giertson and Oldcampcook,
You all got me interested in finding out more about how good this Bosch mixer really is, so I have been searching the Web, reading reviews, comparing prices and came across this video that I thought you might find interesting. This video is not good news for the Kithchen Aid. From the looks of this the comparison the Bosch runs circles around the Kitchen Aid and is only marginally more expensive.
The German engineers really did their homework on the Bosch Universal mixer. I've had an epiphany. It looks like my 20 year old Kitchen Aid (code name: "Whitey") is living on borrowed time.
Their test looks disingenuous to say the least. I have an exact same KA ($125 on Amazon couple of years ago) and that's just not how you run it. It would also help if the guy didn't wear an apron saying "BOSCH" and giggle every timie KA didn't perform comparably. I sorta wonder about the merengue test though. May be later today when I pull out the KA I'll sacrifice an egg to see how it works.
Suave, thanks for your comments,
Yeah, having been in sales for a number of years--It's not hard to see (at first glance) that it's a Bosch "Sales Pitch". As I said, I've had my K.A. for a long time and it's been a very good mixer. However, having said that, I thought the Bosch looked like a new approach (bottom driven, leaving the top open and relatively unemcumbered for adding ingredients, and the mixer/scraper setup with the blades looks like a good engineering design). It also looked like it did a more efficient job of mixing the dough more quickly. If I'm reading the specs correctly, the Bosch is about 2 times the wattage of the K.A. and looks to be more powerful. As for the merangue test, it wasn't a level playing field. K.A. doesn't do a good job when the amount in the bottom of the bowl is insufficent to make good contact with the tip end of the beater, which is the case with 1 egg white in the K.A. bowl. My experience is that I'm better off using my hand mixer and a metal bowl for one egg white rather than the K.A. But I am still interested in seriously looking at the Bosch and doing some research on both the Bosch and the DLX. If you find a less biased test of these two mixers and/or the DLX let me know. I would be very interested. Thanks.
Actually, I am not saying Bosch doesn't appear to be more efficient - one needs to be blind not too see that. I just think the guy is trying to hard and there's nothing in this video that should make KA owners head to Goodwill.
I have had a KA Accolade mixer for about 3 years and bought a Bosch Universal Plus a month ago.I've had no trouble with the KA, but it wouldn't handle dough batches as large as I needed at times. I've just used the Bosch a couple of times. It seems to perform well, but I'm stil getting to know it.I find I'm continuing to use the KA for smaller batches (up to 4.5 lbs of dough). I've used the Bosch for up to 10.5 lbs of a rather stiff dough, which it handled very easily.Really, I have no complaints about either and anticipate using both, as appropriate to their respective advantages, for the forseeable future.David
I'll weigh in and say that the Bosch mixer is probably my favorite. The only machine I've never used is a DLX. I used older KA's with the metal gears when I had my chocolate shop and they were great, have used floor mixers for restaurant work and have a 7qt Delonghi, but the Bosch that I picked up a month ago is the best for bread that I've seen. You do have to learn that i'ts a very agressive mixer, but once you get your timing down so you don't overheat, you're set. I make at least two pizza doughs and two batches of bread dough a week with no problems as far as batch size goes. The pizza dough is only 18oz 66% hydration but if you just stand back and let the machine work, it will incorporate all the ingredients.
Holds99, I bought my Universal right as the newer model was coming out, and with some judicious shopping at a local gourmet store got it for $250.00, no blender. They just wanted to make room for the newest model. You might want to look into it.
Thanks so much for posting your experiences with various mixers, much appreciated. As I said previously, I have a 20 year old (+ or -) K.A. made by the Kitchen Aid division of Hobart (Troy, Ohio) back when Hobart owned Kitchen Aid. It's been, and still is, a real solid work horse. I have tried to compensate for my K.A.s 5 qt. limitation by having two K.A. bowls which I use to make double batches, mixing them seperately. I am serously looking at the Universal Plus but couldn't part with my K.A. and will keep it for smaller batches of dough and other baking. Thanks again,
I have a Bosch Universal and have for about 7 years. I bought it to replace my Kitchen Aid which wouldn't handle the whole wheat bread I was making.The old Kitchen Aids were great, made by Hobert, the new ones aren't and have been junk in my opinion. If they have reworked the gears more power to them. Either the Bosch or the DLX will handle five lbs of dough with ease. Anyone having problems with dough spinning around in a Bosch has a dough that is too dry. A properly hydrated dough kneads beautifully. I am enamoured with the DLX mixers and would get one if I didn't have so much of my money into the attachements for the Bosch (slicer shredder, food processer). Bonnie
I have a Bosch Universal and have for about 7 years. I bought it to replace my Kitchen Aid which wouldn't handle the whole wheat bread I was making.
The old Kitchen Aids were great, made by Hobert, the new ones aren't and have been junk in my opinion. If they have reworked the gears more power to them.
Either the Bosch or the DLX will handle five lbs of dough with ease. Anyone having problems with dough spinning around in a Bosch has a dough that is too dry. A properly hydrated dough kneads beautifully.
I am enamoured with the DLX mixers and would get one if I didn't have so much of my money into the attachements for the Bosch (slicer shredder, food processer).
Bonne1345Eventhough you like the Bosch what about the DLX would you like better? I need advice on pros & cons since I am not sure which way to go.Do you think the finished product the same from both mixers?Thanks for any advice you can share.
It really is more of a flaker then a grain mill, you are better off getting a separate grain mill such as a Nutrimill, etc.
Has anyone used the Cuisinart mixer? I would like to know how it handles small and large batches of dough, how good is it with whole grain and if the dough rides up the hook.
This is my first post here at The Fresh Loaf..I am a chef that has used many tools both at home, and in restaurants..I would like to put in a plug for the Magic Mill Assistent mixer, the DLX, whatever name one might wish to apply to this fine machine..
I originally attended culinary school to become a pastry chef, but soon drifted into the restaurant instead..I have been baking bread since the age of 14 when my mother and grandmother both refused to bake a loaf of sourdough bread from a recipe that was printed in an issue of Outdoor Life magazine, which I subscribed to at the time..One Saturday when no one was around I simply decided to bake the bread, little knowing that I was attempting one of the more difficult tasks in bread baking..Ah, the ignorance and exuberance of youth!!!..Of course, the rest of the family walked in the back door just as I was starting to clean up the considerable mess that I had made on the Formica kitchen table, the walls, and the floor..My parents were angry at the mess, my grandmother was amused that I had "tried" to made bread on my own, and no one thought that I would be successful..Until, of course, the two picture perfect loaves came out of the oven, and were devoured in less than 24 hours..Beginners luck??..Perhaps..But I was hooked on fresh homemade bread from that point forward, and have never looked back..
From 1968 through 1998 every loaf of bread that I made was made by hand..Then, in January 1999 I purchased a Zojirushi Traditional BBCCV20 twin-blade bread machine from The King Arthur Baker's Catalog..Within a year it started to make grinding noises, which I assume were the bearings in the motor failing..KA promptly issued a UPS call tag, and sent me a replacement bread machine..This machine failed within 30 days of my receiving it, also making grinding noises..I explained to KA that I was a professional chef, detailed to them the recipes that I was using in the two machines, and they agreed to issue another UPS call tag for its return to Vermont..
At this point I refused the offer of a third Zojirushi bread machine, which KA willingly offered with no prompting on my part..The new 6 quart KitchenAid stand mixers were first appearing on the market, so I upgraded to the new mixer, paying the difference in price between the Zojirushi and the KitchenAid..Upon reciept of the 6 quart KitchenAid mixer, I unpacked it and plugged it in to test it..I was at this point in my purchases for a bread machine / mixer, somewhat gun shy..Listening to the brand new mixer during its test run with no load on the motor, I became convinced that this mixer ultimately was not going to work out as a bread kneading machine for me..I based this educated guess on my previous experiences with Hobart commercial 5 quart, 10 quart, 12 quart, 20 quart, 30 quart, 40 quart, and 60 quart machines; as well as the many KitchenAid 4.5 and 5 quart residential machines that I had had personal experience using in restaurants or bakeries..This brand new mixer just sounded, in a word, "cheap"..In other words, it had a less than quality sound to the motor right out of the box..
As you can imagine, the folks up in Vermont were not happy campers when I called them up to express my displeasure at the new arrival..I explained my reasonings and, reluctantly, they agreed to issue a UPS call tag for the KitchenAid..At this point I believe that they would have been more than willing to be shed of me, even though my family and I had spent thousands of dollars shopping in the Baker's Catalog up to that point in time..I enquired about upgrading once again to the Kenwood KM800 Stainless Steel stand mixer which had recently been added to the Baker's Catalog..After speaking to the one person in the test kitchen at KA that actually owned the Kenwood mixer, I decided to pay the difference between the KitchenAid 6 quart mixer, and the Kenwood KM800 mixer..
After using the Kenwood KM800 mixer for 30 days I was disappointed in the power of the motor, which was rated at 800 watts.I made several dozen batches of bread with the KM800..I came to the conclusion that although it was better than the Zojirushi bread machines and the residential KitchenAid mixers (especially the post-Hobart ones); the KM800 was still not what I was looking for in a high-quality home bread kneading machine..So, with great reluctance I called the Baker's Catalog folks in Vermont..The end result was that I paid to have the KM800 shipped back to Vermont, and received a full refund of the $499.95 purchase price to my credit card..The people at King Arthur were more than gracious throughout the entire ordeal, as I had expected to have to pay a restocking fee for the return of the KM800..Perhaps the over $3000.00 that I had spent with them helped..I guess I will never know..
Anyway, I promptly spent another $500.00 to purchase the Magic Mill Assistent mixer from another source..I cannot recall exactly where I purchased the DLX as I cannot find the receipt, and it has been over 8 years since I purchased it..I had been reluctant to invest (proper word) in the Magic Mill DLX Assistent mixer due to its unconventional look..Virtually all of the mixers that I was aquuainted with, at that time, were the planetary-action Hobart mixers with the motor mounted above the mixing bowl..For serious home bread bakers I can unequivocally state that a direct drive mixer with the bowl attached directly to the shaft of the motor is to be preferred over all other types of mixers..These types of mixers are simply more powerfull, able to handle more dough weight, and stickier doughs than other mixers are capable of for longer periods of time without either struggling, or failing..
I did not purchase the DLX because it can be turned into a multi-purpose machine by the addition of optional attachments..I purchased it because it is first and foremost an exceptional home bread kneading machine..I have other special purpose tools that will accomplish what most of the attachments for the DLX are designed for..
Citrus Press--Breville Citrus Press
Blender--40 year-old Oster Osterizer, and Vita-Mix Vita-Prep 3
Berry Press--Squeezo hand crank Tomato & Berry Press
Grater & Vegetable Slicer/Shredder-- 3, 7, & 14 cup Cuisinarts
Pasta Attachment--Atlas Pasta Machine
I will admit that the Double Whisk attachment works very well if I have a lot of egg whites to whip..If I made a lot of sausage, which I do not, I might be tempted to purchase the Meat Mincer and Sausage Pipe..As far as the Grain & Flake Mills are comcerned, I would be tempted to purchase a Country Living Grain Mill through Pleasant Hill Grain if if I was going to start grinding my own grains..
All in all, I give a very hearty recommendation to the Magic Mill DLX Assistent mixer as a bread kneading machine; especially for large batches, or sticky doughs..There is serious quality built into this home machine..