The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Difference between chilling after rise and chilling before rise

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

Difference between chilling after rise and chilling before rise

The particular sourdough starter I'm using (I love the flavor) doesn't rise at all in my fridge even if I increase my fridge to 5C.   I've had pretty good luck setting a cold pack next to it on the counter overnight but if the room is a little too warm it'll overproof before morning. 

So I'm wondering about using my fridge as a controlled temp (especially once summer gets here and my kitchen warms up) and either letting it fully (or 75-80%) rise before putting in the fridge overnight and then from the fridge straight into the oven in the morning 

Or putting it into the fridge before it rises and then letting it rise in the morning before baking.    

Or in the fridge overnight and then let it rise in the morning and then into the freezer for 30 minutes before going into the oven.

I think that when the dough is cold before going in the oven it would be easier to slash - but what other differences would I expect between those different methods?   More oven spring when going from the cold into the oven?

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

with those parameters and see what works best for you. I do think though that your first option would not work because the dough continues to rise in the fridge and you would probably end up with an over proofed loaf. 

Personally, I put my loaves into the fridge right after shaping and leave them there 10-12 hours. That seems to be the sweet spot for me. The fridge is at 37F. I then bake right out of the fridge. I have tried leaving it to rise some before or after retarding and I don’t like the results as much. 

Lets us know what you come up with. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Andy, it goes against my better judgement, but after using the method Danni described, I’ve become a believer. Leslie Ruf first told me about it. All you need is a good proof,then shape and put it to bed in the fridge. Often I see very little rise when I remove it form the frig. Bake it cold. It’s also easier to slash. But boy, does it spring in the oven!

Give it a good try and see if it works for you.

Danni, have you tried this method using a cold oven? I haven’t but I’m thinking about it. Another thing that goes against my better judgement :-)

Just finished baking Hawaiian Sweet Breads (hoagie style buns) for our Christmas Eve celebration. We love fried oyster sandwiches. The house smells like heaven

Dan

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I have 4 loaves to bake and I am going to bake the first 2 using a cold oven and cold Dutch ovens. The next two will go into the hot pots and hot oven. The second loaves are going to spend more time in the fridge but it shouldn't make that much of a difference. Should be interesting! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

And your name is pretty good, too.

Looking forward to your findings. It is a fantastic benefit to learn from others. I say again, this forum is outstanding! We have commercial baker’s, obsessive home bakers <ask my wife>, excited and inquisitive new bakers. And all looking to learn and share what they’ve learned.

Bread is the ultimate food. The Staff of Life

Dan

”inquiring minds want to know”

 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

at ambient temperatures, shape then straight into the fridge, baking first thing in the morning.  no finger pokes, nothing. usually works a treat.  This week I made my version of Field Blend#2 and silly me added the yeast as per recipe, normally I leave it out. My loa es turned out ok when baked in the morning but I think they were a bit overproofed. I had looked at them at 8pm and dithered... and so left them.   Slashing is always easier, and I like the fact that I preheat oven, bread in, bake, done... no hanging around waiting for dough to be ready :)

Look forward to Dannis cold bake..

Look forward to hearing what you decide to do.

Leslie

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Unless there is a compelling reason not to, I always bake straight from retard.  Doesn't appear to have a negative effect on what comes out of the oven.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, do you rest at room temp any amount of time once you remove the shaped and retarded dough? Just want to be sure.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the dough is in the express lane.  It doesn't emerge from the refrigerator until the oven has been preliminarily steamed.

retard->oven peel->scored->oven.  No local stops.

AndyPanda's picture
AndyPanda

The specific starter (that I like the flavor the best) will not rise at all in my fridge, even at 5c.  Doesn't matter if I leave it for 12 hours or 48 hours, it will not rise in the fridge.   Rises beautifully out of the fridge though and tastes fantastic. 

I have tried all three of the scenarios and they all work - I just posted the initial question wondering what I might be giving up (or gaining) with one as opposed to the others.

So, just to be clear, with this starter.  If I do my bulk ferment and stretch 'n' folds at room temp and then shape and put it directly into the fridge ..... in the  morning it will still need to rise for about 3 hours at room temp (I say room temp - but my room is cold so I mean in my warm oven at a normal person's room temp).

The other way I've tried is after shaping I keep it at room temp for about 2 hours (so it's 3/4 of the way proofed) and then into the fridge.  And then it's usually just about ready to go straight into the oven in the morning. Never had it be overproofed but sometimes it still needs to proof at room temp for 30 minutes to an hour - depends on how well I guess when it's at the sweet spot before putting it in the fridge.

I can use my other starter and it works like you guys are saying - shape it and straight into the fridge and it will rise overnight.  But that starter doesn't have the same flavor this starter does.  So I think different strains have different temps where they shut down - and this strain I like so much doesn't like the cold.

 I have had good luck using an ice chest with a small "cold pack" - then I can go from shaping into the ice chest overnight and it's just right - that's at about 8-9c though.  And it's a bit of a nuisance to have to setup the ice chest each night - so much easier to retard in the fridge.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

ago I was at the library reading one of Peter Reinhart's read books where he said that he liked to do about an hour bulk ferment on the counter than into the fridge to finish the bulk overnight and then let the dough warm up on the counter for an hour or two before shaping and final proofing.  This allows you to time the final proof perfectly.  Ian and David Snyder use this method quite a bit

When you do a short bulk on the counter and then shape for a cold proof overnight it really takes some experimenting with dough size and pre-fermented flour amount to keep the dough from over-proofing in the fridge. But once you figure it out it works well and if it does over proof you can always re-shape it and let it proof on the counter again no worries.  If it is under proofed you can let it warm  up on the counter before baking so this method is pretty flexible too.  Many Fresh Lofians use this method because it fits their schedules better

Oddly, using both methods at the same time can help the home baker bake more bread faster and more efficiently,  The Oven and fridge size is the problem.  The fridge is precious space around here and it is hard to get 8 loaves of shaped bread in it at one time and the oven is even worse where about 4 loaves of decent sized bread is the max.  It is way easier to get 4 shaped and 4 bulk loaves in a crowed fridge at the same time.

In the morning the first thing you do is get the 4 bulk loaves out of the fridge and then start the oven for the 4 shaped loaves.  10 minutes later you shape the 4 bulk loaves for final proofing on the counter, or another warm place ,as the oven continues to heat up.  Once the oven is properly heated and the steaming method in place, DO's hot, you can get the shaped loaves out of the fridge, unmold, score and get them oven for baking.  When they are done all you do is wait for the counter loaves to finish proofing before baking this is the d-fastest way to make 8 loaves of bread when you are restricted by fridge and oven space.

It is a good thing that both methods work equally well.

loydb's picture
loydb

I'm in the 'proof in the basket in the fridge overnight camp'. This is particularly useful when using fresh whole grain flour -- it brings out a ton of flavor, and softens it a bunch.

 

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

The cold oven/cold dutch oven loaf is on the right. The hot oven/hot dutch oven is on the left. The pictures don't show a lot of difference but in actuality, there are some distinct changes. The "cold" loaf spread out a lot more and has more of a peaked look from the side. The "hot" loaf is not as wide but it is slightly higher and has more of a full look to it. We ate the "hot" loaves at my brother's last night and I put the "cold" loaves in the freezer so no crumb shot. I imagine that they would be very similar.

I prefer the look of the "hot" loaves so I don't think I will be going to the cold bake since it only saved me about 20 minutes for that first bake. It took 23 minutes for the oven to heat up (pots with lids on and loaves in the oven) and I baked the loaves covered after that for 20 minutes and uncovered for 22 minutes. My normal routine is to heat up the oven for 45 minutes, bake covered for 25 minutes and then uncovered for 22.

So there you go! 

ETA: The loaves were all baked right out of the fridge.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The other question remains. Cold dough in room temp pot into preheated oven.

Those comparisons are already listed here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20746/hot-versus-cold-dutch-oven-baking-experiment

Dan