The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Flour affecting starter development..

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Flour affecting starter development..

I've had an interesting experience this week. For the past month I had been feeding my starter with AP flour, rather than bread as I ran out and wanted to use up the AP.  During this last few weeks my starter has been performing very well. I've fed it twice daily 1:3:3 every twelve hours to suit my schedule in the week to bake on the weekend. Using AP I was getting a great triple rise every 12 hours.  Two weeks ago I fed it 1:3:5 to make a stiff starter and put it in the fridge for a week. This past week I decided I would bake and pulled some out and began my counter top feeding schedule all over again. But in the meanwhile I bought some unbleached locally milled bread flour and have been using that instead of AP to get my starter ready to bake.

And this is where it got interesting. Using bread flour I was barely getting a double every twelve hours. So I decided to compare and now have two counter-top starter feeds on the go - one fed with bread flour and one with AP. Everything was identical - feeding schedule, counter placement, weights, etc. What I've noticed is that the AP flour fed starter has risen earlier through the 12 hour window and slightly more by the end.  It also smells a bit sweeter/yeastier and less acidic than the bread flour starter. I also suspect that as I feed them more (it's now been two days of doing this experiment) that I'm going to get he AP fed starter to pull ahead and get back to tripling. Also, in an odd way the AP fed starter also seems to feel more active / developed when I scoop out the 10g for the next feed. I think as I continue to feed the AP starter a few more times, and continue to reduce any bread flour in the starter, that it will continue to improve.

I'm totally surprised by this.  Does anyone know why this would be happening?

 

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Is your AP flour malted while bread flour is not? Malt will provide extra food in the form of sugars which would probably affect growth rate.

-Brad

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Neither is malted in any way..

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

The main difference between AP and bread flour is the amount of glutens, and it is roughly on the order of 2%, assuming 10.5% compared to 12.5% respectively. What is that extra 2% in the AP flour? Starches and sugars? Could 2% be a sufficient increase to increase growth rate? Possible, though it seems unlikely.

Do you observe the same density of bubbles in both samples? Does one seem stiffer than the other? Hard to do this objectively, I realize, but I wonder if the additional glutens provide extra resistance to rising for the bread flour sample.

-Brad

bread1965's picture
bread1965

I agree, but I don't think it's the protein content. I think they're about the same - see below. I would say that when I initially feed the bread flour seems silkier if that make sense.. and yes I think the air pockets are more developed in the AP at the end of the 12 hours and it's more active generally..

#1 : AP Flour ingredients: wheat flour, ascorbic acid, amylase, vitamins and minerals (niacin, reduced iron, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid). It doesn't list the protein content but google tells me that most AP has between 10-12%. I'm using unbleached all purpose no-frills loblaws AP flour in Canada.

#2 : Bread (hard flour) ingredients: sifted hard wheat flour.  From their website: It is made from the center portion of the endosperm, with the bran and germ removed, ( which contains a good percentage of the nutrients such as niacin, riboflavin and thiamine). By law, the the flour must be "fortified “ again with these nutrients being added back into the white flour, along with iron. Protein content ranges from 11% to 12% for this flour. I'm using Arva Hard unbleached flour. And to be clear, I've made some great breads with this flour.

I'm puzzled by this one.. I wonder if it's simply that the house is cooler this week - winter's blown in so my kitchen is cooler than it has been in the last few weeks. Perhaps the difference of say 10% protein on the AP versus 12% on the bread is enough to make a difference, and more so when it's a bit cooler. I'm testing this theory out by having the starters sit in my oven today and I'm turning the light on for a bit throughout the day to keep it a bit warmer.

Let's see..

 

 

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

...in the AP ingredients is the amylase, which is an enzyme that breaks down starch into sugar. I have not seen that in the organic AP flours that I typically use. It could also explain the extra activity.

If you want to complicate your experiment even further, also try an AP flour without the amylase.

-Brad

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Not sure about sourdough yeast but commercial yeast is assisted by the presence of ascorbic acid (vitamin c) - note that rapid rise / instant yeazt contains it but refular ADY doesnkt - it looks like your ap has ascorbic acid while the bread flour doesnt so perhaps this is the reason you are seeing more acivity ?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

There seems to be a lot more going on in the AP flour ingredients and the bread flour is just plain wheat flour. That's what jumps out at me. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Then the AP will absorb less water and the mobility of the yeast improves.  This mobility may be increasing the rate of yeast population.  That would be my theory, esp. with cooler weather, mobility becomes more important.  In cold kitchens, the higher the hydration the faster the fermenting.  

I've never found a good reason to use bread flour in a starter unless there was no other flour available.  Gluten has to be broken down and I'd rather have the beasties working at eating and population than dealing with sticky gluten slowing down the works. 

If you have some pure starch around, try cutting or diluting the bread flour with it and see if (a third starter) rise improves.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

It is (and appears) more active in every way.. I didn't know not to use bread flour for starter development - but will now going forward. 

I guess if you take it further then, pastry flour (of which I have about 2kilos in the freezer and little use for) would be even better with 9-10% protein content, rather than using AP flour.. ?? 

But does that mean that feeding with a blend of more water than flour  - so say 1:3:2 (starter:water:flour) would generate an even more active starter?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

In a cold kitchen or pantry.... yes.  Make your own test to find out what works for your conditions.   Of course if you use a wetter starter, you may have to use more of it and less water in the dough recipe.   :)

bread1965's picture
bread1965

It's been a curious discovery..

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Not exactly what you were asking about, but related to Mini Oven's comment about higher hydration starters being more active. This YouTube video is a time lapse of 50%, 75% and 100% hydration starters showing activity over time. It may be of interest.

-Brad

bread1965's picture
bread1965

It shows the type of experience I had but the variable in my case being the change in flour over hydration. Clearly it's evidence of mini's point on hydration - and likely a factor in my experience given her comment. I'm not sure of the why, but the practical application for me is that I'll not use bread/hard flour going forward to feed my starter. It's just yet one more moving variable.. thank you very much!