The Fresh Loaf

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So I'm using up starter in a yeasted bread but have a question...

Anonymous baker's picture
Anonymous baker (not verified)

So I'm using up starter in a yeasted bread but have a question...

I'm more familiar with sourdough than yeasted breads. 

Can I shape after the bulk ferment and then retard the dough overnight or should I retard the dough, after the bulk ferment, before shaping? 

hreik's picture
hreik

I would retard before shaping.  If there's only a bit of yeast I feel you can do either.  I'm no expert, as you know.

Let us know what you do... and

good luck

 

hester

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And I'm thinking of letting it complete the bulk ferment and then refrigerating before shaping. This way I feel in have more time. It has some starter and a touch of yeast. 

I'll let you know how it goes Hester. 

Thanks! 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

I find commercial yeast is so powerful you may risk going too far after shaping. I'd be tempted to fridge it slightly before bulk is complete as well, but it's not something I've done a lot of recently so I'm sure the real experts will be along soon.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Thanks Elasquerino. 

There is a difference between over proofing and over fermenting. While a dough may be over proofed (risen beyond its optimal height) it doesn't necessarily mean it's over fermented (the yeast has run out of food). If over proofed one may knock back, reshape and proof again. If over fermented it's too late. The reason why they're often mixed up is because proofing is the result of fermenting. This is why in doubt I feel it's better to refrigerate before shaping as this will solve the problem of over proofing and at the same time give more time for fermenting. 

More ideas are forming. This was a small loaf to use up starter. I'm now thinking of turning it into to a Biga, refrigerate for the night and make a bigger loaf out of it tomorrow. 

This is going to be fun! 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I imagine you and the dough (or firm starter) have gone to bed by now, but I think your idea of turning it into a biga was a good one. I find that, when I make a hybrid, even if it only has a tiny bit of ADY I let it ferment at room temperature for a much shorter time than I would a 'pure' sourdough, then let it finish fermenting in the fridge. If it's not 'ready' in the morning you can let it sit at room temperature for another couple of hours before shaping, but I suspect it would be fine to shape it and then let it proof.

I'm getting much more relaxed about adding a touch of ADY to my sourdoughs, now that I know more about how the bacteria and yeasts work and that S. cerevesiae isn't such a bad thing. :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Almost! I'm making my way now and the dough has just gone into the fridge for the night. Now it's a Biga I'm more relaxed about it. And because it's going to be a 50% Biga by the time it's  finished my plan for the morning is add the rest of the ingredients, knead, shape and straight into final proofing. Whatever the outcome it'll sure be interesting. Is it a sourdough or yeasted who knows? But after our discussion the other day I'm not fussed :) With a significant amount of starter and the long ferment I'm sure a sourdough it is. What started off as a quick bread to use up starter has turned out to be sourdough timing. If I get a delicious bread out of it I'm happy. 

Gnite. 

P.s. re: yoghurt maker conversation. I'm thinking 75-85F for the bacteria and then 65-75F for the yeasts. But that is total guesswork. Mini would be the one to ask. I'm thinking if getting one now. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

My opinion - it's a sourdough for sure, as it seems to be the LAB that make it so, not the yeasts. The bacteria seem to add most of the flavour as well as doing the heavy work on the gliadin, so you still get the benefits of the sourdough without stressing too much over the strength of the yeast population.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. G'night...

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

I was worried about overproofing but it was just fine. That being said, I keep my fridge quite cold so that probably helped keep things under control. 

Check out my Pain de Campagne with unfed starter for more detail. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

In the end I too did the final proofing in the fridge and it turned out just fine. Obviously I had used the correct amount of yeast I was pleased to find out. 

I'll check it out! 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Im much more familiar with yeasted breads and agree with elsasque - its powerful but that of course depends on how much yeast you use. Generally however you do need to watch out as it can run away, so bulk retard, shape and bake is a good call. I suppose you could retard after shaping but youd need to go very light on yeast - sometimes i will retard overnight and see hardly any rise and thats starting significaltly with <1% yeast ady but usually will see roughly .5 increase in volume over 12 hours . funny as im planning on doing some hybrids (as soon as i can revive a starter)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Winged it and it turned out just fine. Decided that I hadn't used too much yeast as I had doubled the recipe but not the yeast. Got a lovely loaf out of it. 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Really interested since hybrid is on my todo list - any snaps ?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)
alfanso's picture
alfanso

Abe, 

Posted on TFL a few times, most recently by HansB and Jimbtv

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

This is a table I need. Turns out my guesswork worked. Just taken out of the oven a lovely khorasan/spelt sourdough/yeasted hybrid made with a biga. This recipe went through some changes. 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Hey, I want Picts!!! ;-)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)