The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Hole regulation wanted

gillpugh's picture
gillpugh

Hole regulation wanted

i made this bread today, seeded bread with semolina from the perfect loaf.  Two changes, dropped hydration to 63% and the liquid was kefir whey left over from cheese making.

it tastes lovely and the crust is crackly and tasty, but for me to understand the process better, why is the holes nearer the surface bigger and smaller in the middle?  any help would be appreciated. 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

between warmer air and cooler dough temp during rising

or uneven degassing

or shaping discrepancies 

or a ragged cut    

        ... in a warm loaf

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

was also ment to include any kind of rising, also during the baking. 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

A loaf with large holes depends on many factors and and entire process really however the last most important factor is infusing a ton of energy into the gas cavities in the form of heat. As such the first 'holes' to develop are at the surface where the heat enters the loaf. Eventually the heat will arrive at the center but theres also a window of opportunity for the holes to develop. If the center is not showing signs of open crumb it means the entire loaf did not heat fast enough. Generally speaking you have about 5 minutes at the beginning of the bake to make that happen. After that point the loaf is curing and browning. You may nitice thinner loaves have more consistent open crumb (thanks to the ratio of surface area to volume)

gillpugh's picture
gillpugh

Thanks kednalam, must check my oven is at itz highest.  I did leave the top out of the oven and not re warm after the first loaf was baked, may be that.

but it's probable minioven my de gassing and shaping skills that are to blame

thanks. 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I bake at 500f+ and do a few other sneaky things to get enough 'kick' (i love that way of describing the oven process). Mini is correct in acknowledging the many reasons but im willing to bet its mostly a heat thang over degassing in this case. Look at where there bubbles are biggest, you could almost overlay arrows showing the heat flowing from the sides inwards. Also want to consider how hot is it really inside by the time the loaf starts baking - How long is the door open - consoder how much heat is lost with the door - are you using a good stone ?

gillpugh's picture
gillpugh

Kendalm  - my oven is 500 first 10 minutes then 460 for rest. I use a Dutch oven.  But in this case, I had cooked one loaf and took off the lid and left it out of the oven for 20 mins as the first bread cooked off.  It could have been that the lid of the Dutch oven wasn't hot enough?

i also cooked straight from 24 hour fridge retard.  Should I leave it out to warm up ?

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Get the maximum heat so yes on all the above. Consider that when the door is open, the internal temperature drops maybe even 100f. As an example of going the distance with heat retention I will coordinate things so that the maximum time the door is open is about 10 seconds. I also use the top-most rack and double my stones there as well (i have two equal size 12×22x.5 inch basalt slabs). After 10 minites of baking Im not too worried of the heat drops (im usually turning loaves around this mark - its thd very beginning of the bake that is so important in developing crumb, bloom etc, the second part is all about curing what youve created up front. Of course prior steps are important (gluten development degassing shaping and what-not) but in this case i think you are over analyzing as the loaf looks great and eslecially considering the flour type - the crumb along the edges is and idication of the potential. Btw if you knowbour resident scientist docdough he and I shared many a pm over this issue and took a while to nail these little details - you should see some of his photos which i encouraged him to post but remain unpublished. Go for heat and see what goodness it brings !

gillpugh's picture
gillpugh

Bulk ferment at the moment, so I'll,put into practice all you suggest.  No slabs, but I'll get some for the next time.  Thanks. 

gillpugh's picture
gillpugh

Minioven. Uneven degassing is also a problem. Thinking back, the problem area was obviously in the thick middle area that I didn't de Gas before shaping.  So much to get right, one day hopefully it will become second nature. 

Harleyellen05's picture
Harleyellen05

As I read through these posts, I see that I am not alone in my challenges to get an open crumb structure in my loaves. I use a baking stone underneath and firebrick along the side walls. My stove is electric. Today was my first bread using my fresh starter was born 8 days ago. I made 2 loaves of a little over a pound each at 65% hydration. Flour mix is 85% KA all purpose, 9% fresh milled rye and 6% fresh milled white ww. I baked them at 450 for 12 min, and finished at 425. I steamed for the first 5 min. How do folks get that nice open structure?