The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Percentage of Seed to Levain

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Percentage of Seed to Levain

Let's say the Total Flour Weight in the Total Formula = 1000g
20% flour of Total Flour Weight is used in the  Levain. So that = 200g flour

So in a 100% hydration Levain there should be 100g Total Flour and 100g water.

You want to inoculate the Levain with 10% seed that has a hydration of 100%. It seems like you would use 20g of seed. But since the seed is 100% hydration there would be only 10g of flour.

Finally, the question,
Would I need to use 40g of seed and 80g Flour and 80g Water to make this accurate?

I'm working on a spreadsheet, so details like this make a difference in the calculations.

Thanks,
Dan

 

Malio's picture
Malio

(double post)

 

Malio's picture
Malio

To make your 200g levain it would go like this:

100% flour + 100 % water + 10% seed = 210%

so, 200/210 = 95g flour + 95g water + 10g seed (I rounded all of them)

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem

Let's say the Total Flour Weight in the Total Formula = 1000g

20% flour of Total Flour Weight is used in the  Levain. So that = 200g flour

So in a 100% hydration Levain there should be 100g Total Flour and 100g water.

If you're aiming for 20% prefermented flour and you're using 1000g total flour then correct! the prefermented flour = 200g. 

However if you wish for 200g flour within a 100% hydration levain then you'll need 400g levain = 200g water + 200g flour. 

So if you want 1000g total flour with 20% prefermented flour then the formula will look like this...

  • 800g flour
  • 400g levain (200g water + 200g flour)

This is 50% levain in the final formula but 20% prefermented flour of total flour. 

As for how you go about building the levain that is very flexible as long as you end up with 200g water + 200g flour. When you build the levain take into account how much time you have and how sour you want it both of which will effect on how you choose the amount of starter to fresh feed.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I was hoping to build a spreadsheet that would convert TDW and percentages/hydrations automatically. But since recipes seem to be written without universal standards (when it comes to Levain and maybe Soakers) I may need to rethink the project.

I've noticed that Levains are generally written as an ingredient. I'm beginning to think this is why.

I've studied the Bread Baker's Guild of America standards. It would be nice if they'd existed long ago and bakers would have universally adopted them.

I appears to me that the Total Formula is standardized, But the Soaker and Levains don't seem to be. Am I correct in thinking this?

Lechem's picture
Lechem

The overall recipe and then the recipe rearranged to include a levain, taking flour and water from the overall recipe, become two different formulas. So even a standardized way of understanding it, rather than something which isn't universal, there would be difficulty. I'm no spreadsheet and spreadsheet formula expert but I think there would be an issue because in both tables the flour becomes 100%. 

Without the Levain the flour is 100% and the water and salt are a percentage to the flour. 

With the Levain, built from some of the flour and water, then the Levain becomes an ingredient itself and is worked out as a percentage to the flour which is now less but is still read as 100%. 

So the flour % hasn't changed and yet there is a different amount in both tables. But it is important because you need to know what percentage the Levain to the flour is for fermentation purposes. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This topic took off on 2 paths. One the percentage of seed to levain and Two, the Dough Calculator. Because of this I have moved the topic about Doug Calculators here

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/52683/bakers-percentages-spreadsheet-available-download-need-help

Please go to this link if you are interested in Dough Calculators (Excel Spreadsheet). It is available for download at the link above.

--Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

 

This topic took off on 2 paths. One the percentage of seed to levain and Two, the Dough Calculator. Because of this I have moved the topic about Doug Calculators here

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/52683/bakers-percentages-spreadsheet-available-download-need-help

Please go to this link if you are interested in Dough Calculators (Excel Spreadsheet). It is available for download at the link above.

--Dan

How do you look at Soakers, Starters, and Mash as they relate to the Baker's Formulas?

I'm burning brain cells on this...
Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Post Deleted

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I have made a "Bread Master" calculator in Excel. I don't know how to upload an Excel file, and it's a bit difficult to describe. I use the Baker's Percentage conversion factor (see description on King Arthur Flour here). There is one table for the dough, one for a starter and one for another component (call it 'soaker'). Each table uses the conversion factor and calculates the flour as 100% and other ingredients as a percentage of the flour. Each table calculates the hydration level for that component (dough, starter, soaker).

The dough table has the starter and soaker as ingredients. Here's the tricky part - the dough table calculates dough hydration using all the liquids (including eggs, oil, etc) as a percentage of all the flours in the dough (not including the starter and soaker). Then another cell calculates the overall hydration by adding all the liquids (including those in the starter and soaker) and dividing by all the flours (including those in the starter and soaker).

The way it is set up, I can then enter the required final dough weight per loaf, and the required number of loaves, and everything automatically calculates. Hope this makes sense!

the hadster's picture
the hadster

I tried to make one, but my math abilities aren't up to the task.  I was able to get everything working up to a point, but when I tried to include starters, soakers and poolishes, it all fell apart.  That you were able to include eggs and oil etc, that's impressive.  However, mine will work with a straight and naturally leavened dough.  I put in how many loaves I want, and it does the rest. So helpful.

Do you have one for different recipes?

It sounds really fantastc.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

it may help.  I spend some time setting it up and do use it sometimes. Cant remember whose post it was here maybe a year ago?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

After reading the BBGA articles on Formulas and Percentages I got interested in the spreadsheets. I wanted to get a working excel file so I searched the site and found none. I'm thinking that I'd have to join and $85 per year seems high for a home baker.

Please go to this link if you are interested in Dough Calculators (Excel Spreadsheet). It is available for download at the link above.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/52683/bakers-percentages-spreadsheet-available-download-need-help

--Dan

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

over next few days.  Will share what I have done after I check it over again.  I have sent a PM.  Great to share this kinda stuff.

Leslie

the hadster's picture
the hadster

but the dues were not as high as they are now.   I agree, 85 dollars is kinda high for a home baker.  There isn't much on the website FOR home bakers, so...

I sent you a private message.  If you don't get it, let me know.

the hadster's picture
the hadster

I tried to copy and paste my poor excuse for a spread sheet, but it didn't look anything like yours. What did you do?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am using windows 7 and there is a program called, Snipping Tool.

Click Start > they type "Snipping Tool" into the "Search Programs and files box"

It looks like Floyd has set uploaded images to down size (pixels) to a certain dimension. So if using a large image it may look smaller on the post.

 

I think I'm making good progress on the dough calculator.

Dan

the hadster's picture
the hadster

My calculator works, but it is basic.

At the time that I started it, I was a member of the BBGA, so I could use and manipulate their spreadsheet.  I might have even downloaded it.

Anyway, I got my favorite recipes for which I knew the various percentages, and then started fiddling with formulas.  What my spreadsheet doesn't to, that yours does, is make the various stages of a build clear.  I have a small box that indicates the amount of flour and water in my starter - I always keep mine at 100% because I am math challenged.  I have one or two boxes that are outlined in red so that I don't start changing things that shouldn't be changed.

I open the spreadsheet and input how much dough I want, and then I can change the percentages for water and the amount of starter.  

When I print out my spreadsheet, there are boxes at the bottom for time and temperature for each stage, room to indicate up to 6 folds, when it goes into the fridge, the temp of the fridge etc.  And then lines so that I can write in my notes.

Rumor has it that I will save the pieces of paper for reference, but I'm always loosing them...

But now I have My Big Purple Notebook with sheet protectors and two sections,  "Under Development," and "Tried & True."  This method seems to be working well for me.

I'm at the remedial stage with my scientific note taking.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I want to get mine to the point where I track all the ingredients on a different sheet and figure out the cost per gram of each of them. I can then determine what it costs per loaf to make a certain type of bread and make adjustments as required (increase the price, decrease the loaf weight, substitute less expensive ingredients, etc.). I'm part-way there but don't have the time to devote to it.

I'd also like it turned into an app for my phone (Samsung) so I don't have to lug the laptop into the kitchen when I'm baking. :)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I finally got setup to create a downloadable link for the Doug Calculator.

Hopefully this topic will be joined by others with experience in Excel and Baker's Percentages. I've moved the discussion over to a new Forum Topic entitled, "Baker's Percentages Spreadsheet available to download -Need Help-"

Here is the link
Baker's Percentages Spreadsheet available to download -Need Help-

Please post all information relative to this subject to Baker's Percentages Spreadsheet available to download -Need Help-

Dan

phaz's picture
phaz

Now, I don't weight anything, never have, but I do love a problem. And while no excel expert, I've always been a fan of it. Add to that I love a good problem, I whipped this up real quick. I think it works, but consider it in alpha testing.

Cells in red are changeable. Enter a tdw, and ingredients in percentages. There's a section for a mix of flours - enter in percentages. And preferment percent can be entered - then enter flour/water/starter percentages for the preferment. Starter Info needs to be entered - flour/water in percent. Hydration are calculated - green cells, as are all other weights. Disregard negative/red values. If starter amount in preferment is greater than amount of starter entered in the dough, we get negative values (that was a close enough solution for me). There's room for entering other ingredients - some rom anyway. Sheet is protected so some cells can't be selected. Recipe name and notes can be entered. I did this using open office on my phone then saved in xls format as that is probably most used across platforms. I think everything is correct (was a wonderful test of logic), but what do I know :)

Have a look if anyone wants to, feedback always accepted. Enjoy - I hope!

Oh, it's safe, no vba or macros used - just fat fingers and a cell phone.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz4rnqoAF3CYa1ZkZElYLXVCV3c/view?usp=drivesdk

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I going to look this over. But it'll probably take me more time to study it than it took you to make it. 

I've already noticed how you get around the circular references. I know little of Excel.

Still Looking...

Thanks

--Dan

phaz's picture
phaz

Circular references are the big killer in excel. Like I said, I'm no expert, but I've used it enough, seen it used enough, and had to fix it for company owners and execs enough to know what to look out for. Once the logic becomes clear, it's really not hard to get what you want it of it. That sheet does have it's limitations (starter hydration over 100% won't fly) but hopefully that's a not to common thing. I was more into figuring out the basic logic than having a perfectly functioning worksheet. As mentioned, I don't weight anything (yeah heresy, I know) but for my needs I've never had any trouble. I've done it enough to go by feel and looks. I'm not looking for picture perfect bread anyway (never been a fan of huge holes - they don't hold anything and there's not much flavor in air). As long as it tastes good, I'm a happy camper, and flying by the seat of one's pants is always a lot more fun.

phaz's picture
phaz

In case anyone is looking at this - I updated the spread.

Fixed error in calculating starter hydration

Made it prettier (to me anyway). Important things more noticeable. Prettier when printed. 

Tried to make it more phone screen friendly. At least on my 5.7" phablet screen. 

Looking at some other spreads, I notice sections for a soaker. In keeping with the principle of KISS (and smartphone screen sizes. I did not add this. My logic was - the difference between soaker and preferment is the lack of starter in 1, and addition of starter in the other. So,a 0 value for starter in the preferment section will make that a soaker.

As always, feedback appreciated, and hope this helps someone out.

the hadster's picture
the hadster

mine is in Excel, and works similarly to this.

But it won't work on a phone or anything groovy like that. ;-)

phaz's picture
phaz

That was another reason for keeping simple. Android or ios, there's a lot of apps to work like office, well supposed to anyway. They are pretty limited. But even those should be able to handle it.