The Fresh Loaf

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Introduction and baking with home milled flour

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Introduction and baking with home milled flour

Hello, my name is Ellen and I just joined The Fresh Loaf although I have been reading posts for years when they popped up on a google search. I am usually quite good about researching new things, but I have gotten myself overwhelmed with trying to research about a few things and thought I would ask here. I am very new to baking at all. I taught myself to cook many years ago and became a good one :), but baking kind of intimidated me for a long time. Last year I bought a good bread maker and used it to do the kneading, then would shape and bake the bread in the oven. I loved it and was successful at learning to make different kinds of breads, rolls, baguettes etc. I enjoyed using the bread machine because I have arthritis so having the kneading done for me was great, and then I got to enjoy shaping it into pizza, braiding challah etc.

Then I had to prepare and move to a new city and stopped baking for about 14 months. I've always wanted to home mill my own flour, but I wanted a Komo Classic and was saving up for one. Now Wolfgang Mock has come out with a much cheaper mill, the Mockmill 100 (it isn't beautiful like the classic, but it grinds just as well :)). So I am about ready to purchase it and started looking for recipes, and books on the subject. I do have a big interest in sourdough as well, but I am not sure I should start with that as it seems more complicated and inconsistent and as I said I am fairly new to baking in general, and totally new to home milling.

So here are a couple of questions to get me started:

I would ideally like not to use white flour at all, I'd like to just use my own home milled flour completely, but after looking at many recipes online that combine the home milled wheat and store bought all purpose flour I am wondering if its just not a very popular choice due to taste or denseness, or something? My family eats primarily store bought whole wheat now, or store bought rye. Occasionally I can get real sourdough bread from a baker in Miami and we all like that too. So we are not used to just very soft white bread or anything like that. We do like hearty bread, but my family would probably not like a very very dense bread.  

I know there are asked and answered questions re: books, but when I researched I found there were fairly new books, so I wanted to ask the question again in case one of the newer ones would be the best choice. Money is somewhat of an object so if I could start with just one or two books that would be my goal. I looked at Peter Rheinhart's book online but I am not sure if home milling is the priority there? And I found what looks like a good home milling book, but there is nothing on sourdough. So my question would be is there a book that is all or mostly  recipes with 100% home milled flour, with some info on sourdough as well? I am not against buying two books, if there is a great home milled book, and a great home milled grain sourdough book I would do that. 

I am studying now the different kinds of wheat, and other grains, but will probably have a question or two when I am ready to purchase. Sadly I have no coop here (Fort Myers, Fl), so will most likely be ordering the grain on the internet. There is a whole foods, but about 45 minutes away in Naples. Has anyone found a great online site to order from? I would prefer organic if it is not terribly more expensive.

Thank you! Excited to be here and learn! 

 

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Welcome,  nearly all my baking, as well as pasta and pizza, are 100% home milled whole wheat.  I have looked for years, and I have never found a book that really addressed it in a way I found all that helpful.  My suggestion, as bad as it is,  is to find a recipe you like, and make it with AP flour a few times.   Then try making it with home milled whole wheat - obviously, you will increase the hydration, how much may have a lot to do with exactly what wheat berries you are using, and you may have to play with the timing as well, some say whole wheat takes longer to absorb water, others say that fermentation goes quicker.  I can say that you should not be disappointed with the taste and texture of 100 % home milled,  whenever I make breads for friends, they are very positive.  You won't get the same oven spring that you get with white flour, but it is not dense like some store bought brands.  I started with all red spring, but now use mostly winter white, the test is much like AP, though a little more earthy.   I bought from an organic food store, but IIRC, the whole foods near be has a surprisingly good price for wheat berries the last I looked, though I normally buy 25 pound bags at the organic food store by special order, I don't know if Whole Foods does that.   Don't worry too much about the mill,  I have used most of the ones out there, and the mill has very little, if any impact, on flavor so far as I can tell.   Keep a notebook, since you will be doing lots of experiments with time, temp, amount of starter, and you can't possibly remember it all.   Good luck. 

 

Edited to add I am using strictly sourdough for the last year or so. Again, lots of trial and error, but the good news is that the errors are nearly always edible, it is usually the appearance that suffers

 

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Wow I am glad to hear that you use 100% whole wheat. I think I'll try the winter white when I get the mill and grain, possibly will see if we like it with a little of the hard red mixrd together. Your suggested way of learning sounds so ideal! Although if it is possible I am hoping to minimize a bit of the trial and error I would have by baking first with AP flour and then learning how to convert to whole grain. Both money and time are tight :0 so while I know there will definitely be a large learning curve I am trying to do my homework to have as smooth a transition as possible. lol. We'll see how that goes! Thank you so much for your detailed response. So happy to find a forum in which to ask questions.

scratchbaker's picture
scratchbaker

I did a bunch of reading here when I bought my grain mill as well! I like to bake a variety of things, and always bake the bread in our house from scratch. Like you, my goal was to bake with 100% whole grain wheat flour, and not have to use store bought flours at all. 

There's so much information out there that it's hard to know where to begin! At least that's how I felt when I got started. I have Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day, which I love, but it's not focused on home milling. There are a couple of gems in it though that are for whole grain flour, plus some general education about baking. The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book is a great one for going into depth on how to bake with whole grain flours.

But I get the sense that you're looking for more of a down-to-basics quick start guide? Over the last several years I've done lots of experimenting and recipe adaptations and recently turned what I've learned into a (short) book. My whole goal was to help bakers get over that learning curve that comes with using homemade flour and feeling confident and excited to bake. I'll link below if you'd like to check it out.

Before I bought my grain mill, I'd only made one or two loaves of bread, so baking with yeast was very new to me. I used Reinhart's instructions to make a sourdough starter, which worked for awhile but then it died :( I'm getting inspired to try again though! I'd agree with you that sourdoughs are harder in the beginning -- between the feeding and knowing how to use them -- but rest assured you can make 100% whole wheat bread that isn't a dense brick :)

Here are a few things that work well for me:

– adding more water to the dough helps really hydrate the whole grain flour
– using ingredients like yogurt and milk for some liquid, oil instead of butter, and honey instead of sugar have helped make the dough nice and supple and my final loaves tend to not be crumbly when I do this
– before I begin kneading, I rest the mixed dough for about 15 minutes to let the flour hydrate
– I knead for 20 minutes to really develop the gluten, or I rest the dough for a few hours or overnight in the refrigerator to allow time to do some of the gluten development

Hope this helps! I love talking whole grains, so if you have any other things you're wondering about that I might be able to help with I'd be happy to.

- Amy
Grain Mill Baking Get-Started Guide: Recipes and Techniques for Confident Whole Grain Baking

 

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Yes you are right, I am looking for a kind of quick start guide. A friend just gave me an old kindle so I will get your book! Thank you for the tips, I am getting excited. I like Peter Reinhart, I have a book about Pizza written by him, but I guess the fact that it doesn't focus on home milled flour makes me hesitant to spend the $ on it. Maybe later when I will learn sourdough. If you rest the dough overnight is it fermenting somewhat even without a sourdough starter? or because it is in a cold temperature, maybe not? Anyhow, thank you so much, cant wait to read your book! 

scratchbaker's picture
scratchbaker

Yes! If you rest the dough overnight in the refrigerator it will start to develop a slightly sourdough-like flavor. YUM. Whenever I make pizza dough, it rests in the fridge for 1-3 days, and the longer it's in there the more flavor develops. I love it that way. That recipe is in my book, along with a No-Knead Artisan-style bread that uses the same technique.

I don't have Reinhart's pizza book, but I did watch his Craftsy class Perfect Pizza at Home, which I'm guessing goes hand in hand with the book. I also have his class Artisan Bread Making. He's such a great teacher. 

h2384783's picture
h2384783

that sounds good! A mild sourdough flavor would be fine for my family! I will definitely try this once I get the feel for it all.  looking forward to reading your book :) Thank you so much!

 

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Hi Amy! I've enjoyed your book and am planning to make the oatmeal raisin cookies tomorrow. It calls for both butter and shortening. I was wondering what you use for shortening in your baking? I have some beef tallow, would you recommend using that in a cookie?? I've only used it for frying. TIA

 

 

scratchbaker's picture
scratchbaker

I'm so glad you're enjoying the book!! I include shortening for some of the fat because it helps keep the cookie softer. I've found that with all butter, while the flavor is fantastic, it gets too crispy and crumbly for my taste with the whole grain flour.

I wouldn't recommend using beef tallow because I tried using lard once and it had a distinctly savory (pork-like) flavor that didn't play well with the sweet flavors I wanted. If you don't have vegetable shortening, you'd probably enjoy the cookies more by using all butter (1/2 c or 113 g) for the fat content. 

Let me know how it goes :) 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Wow! Nothing like digging right in. Baking w ith whole wheat and baking with sourdough are 2 different specialties so plan on taking some time to learn.. Home millimg can be simple or very technical. The good news is you can produce home milled flour after doing very brief research and use it to start baking bread and start that learning curve. IMO, the learning curve on wholegrain breadbaking is more involved. 

I've posted numerous times in the past on whole wheat baking. Use the search box or just click on my name and then the "Track" tab to see my past posts and reply to others posts.

As far as sourdough, there is a LOT of info, much of it conflicting. Always return to basics-what is sourdough? How does it work? For that matter, what is bread?How do different ingredients affect the outcome.

Have fun!

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Thank you for reminding me that this is going to be fun! I was getting a little caught up in the details. I will definitely look up your previous posts, thank you!

IceDemeter's picture
IceDemeter

A few reasons why you see mixed recipes with both commercial AP flour and whole grains:

While you may be fortunate enough to be able to purchase 100% whole wheat or whole rye breads, those are actually pretty rare.  Although the labeling might read "whole grain" or "whole wheat" or "whole rye", many places in North America don't have any laws specifying what percentage of that whole grain needs to be present in the loaf, so most commercial "whole wheat" breads are, at most, 50% whole wheat, and the rest is all purpose white flour.   What is called a "rye" bread in most stores is no more than 20% rye, with the rest all purpose white flour. 

Even when purchasing so called "whole wheat flour", you are not actually getting the full grain.  The commercial mills split off the endosperm (which eventually becomes the white flour), the germ (which has the oils and gets pulled off since it can go rancid fairly quickly), and the bran (much of the fibre and nutrients).  Their "whole wheat" flour is actually their white (endosperm) flour to which they add back some of the bran that was extracted earlier.  It is not comparable in flavour or texture or nutrition to what you get milling whole wheat berries at home and not sifting out or discarding any of it. 

What many people find is that the "whole grain" breads that they really enjoy really don't taste the same as breads made from actual 100% whole grains.  Their compromise is the same as the commercial breads - they use a portion of whole grains with a portion of standard AP flour.

Another good reason is that many people find the whole grains to be considerably more expensive than AP flour.  For instance, here in Canada I can get my standard AP flour for about $0.15 per 100g, where my soft white or hard red wheat berries are $0.25 per 100g, and the cost can go up to over $0.50 per 100g for some other grains (spelt, durum, khorasan, etc.).  This can make a big difference if you are making a lot of bread every week.

Another good reason is that many people need to limit their fibre intakes.  A couple of slices of my 100% whole wheat bread will give me over 10g of fibre, but I can drop that in half by using some AP flour.  For folks who want to eat a few slices of bread every day, this can make a huge difference.

With all of that said, I personally mill my own whole grains and quite often bake 100% whole wheat or whole rye or mixed whole grain loaves --- and absolutely adore them.  I use AP for part of some loaves, for cost savings, for fibre savings, and because people I'm baking for like them better.  It really comes down to what you like and what is important for you.

As has been said, the learning curve is delicious - and fun!  Remember to choose the learning style that you most enjoy, and then just dive in --- and ask questions here whenever you need to.

Here is some whole grain inspiration for you:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/43686/double-levain-100-whole-wheat-half-sprouted-100-hydration

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21575/sourdough-100-whole-wheat-oatmeal-sandwich-bread-whole-grain-breads-can-be-soft-too

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/52035/whole-wheat-wort-sourdough

Keep baking happy!

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Thank you, great advice on the 100% whole grain vs. whole grain and mixing with AP.  I will check out those links!

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Peter Reinhart also has a book on whole grain breads. It might be worth seeing if you can get this from your local library. I don't have this one, so can't comment on whether or not he differentiates between home milled grains and commercially milled. However, other books of his (such as Bread Revolution) do explore 'real' whole grains so I expect he does in this one too.

If you search on this site for Peter Reinhart's whole grain bread, you'll find a few previous conversations about the book and recipes as well.

 

Edit to add - if you search "Bread from home milled flour" on Youtube you will find quite a few videos too.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I have the Peter Reinhart Book  Whole Grain Breads, as well as his book  Bread Revolution.   Neither book deals with home milled, and I think he expressly says that he thought it was an interesting branch, but decided not to address it.  The Whole Grain book has a little on sourdough, but most of the recipes are based on what he calls the epoxy method .  Basically you mix two different batches of flour, one with water and salt, and one with water and yeast ( instant or a starter ) and after both have fermented, you combine them and add quite a bit of instant yeast for a quick rise and bake. As such, it is not a true sourdough since he uses instant yeast.   While I did not find the base recipe too difficult,  he also included some other recipes which are much more involved - such as making a mash . I read his later book,  Artisan Breads Every Day, from the library, and may be mistaken but think he said that ABED used a more streamlined approach, because he felt that many readers did not find the recipes in Whole Grain Breads were worth the effort.   I would definitely look for it in a library before you spend the money to buy it. 

h2384783's picture
h2384783

Thanks for clarifying what Peter Reinhart's books have for the sourdough. It doesn't actually sound easier than what I have been reading about sourdough, except for the feeding aspect (which I guess IS really the challenge of sourdough- having to take days to get and keep it going). I  am interested in learning to make sourdough bread, but since I am new to all of this I thought it would be better first to just learn how to bake with home milled flour. Its interesting to learn about all of this. I'm excited to get a mill and get started. I don't have a coop to buy the grain where I live, so now I am focusing on where to order the grain for the best price. thank you for your comments, you are all so helpful!

h2384783's picture
h2384783

I will check and see if the books are at the library. Will also do a search, thanks. Yes I have been watching some youtube videos. Amazing how LOUD some grinders are (I watch with earbuds!).  Thank you!

emanuelvilla's picture
emanuelvilla

Hello, since you guys are talking about home mill whole grains I thought on throwing a couple of things I have found.

One is my sourdough starter, I use to keep it 100% water 50%APF and 50% WW, and now that I switch to home milling it is 100% Water and 100% WW (Soft white wheat from Bob's RedMill I am not sure if is winter or spring). Anyhow... now seems to tick, was wondering if this will be ok or should I keep it at 125% Hydration or anything more than 100% just to keep the same consistency.

Another is that I have noticed my bread don't grow that much, they might expand to 1.5 times max, but never double, usual is probably around 1.3 size. Is this normal for Whole grains or do I need to increase yeast, add Vital Whet Gluten, or is my mill warming up too much the grain compromising it?

Thanks in advance.

emanuelvilla's picture
emanuelvilla

Sorry forgot to mention, that on the recipes I use, if the recipe calls for Bread Flour I will use 100% Hard Red Spring Wheat, if the recipe calls for AP I use 100% Hard White Winter Wheat. 

Thanks

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Whole wheat flour is not a direct substitution for all purpose or bread flour. Whole wheat breadmaking-whether it is commercially milled or home milled- requires different technique than AP flour. WW will make a dense loaf unless it is properly done. Use the "Search" box and look for "fluffy whole wheat" or something similar. In short, WW needs adequate water, TIME TO ABSORB IT, and good texture development to windowpane (search "windowpane whole wheat" and "txfarmer windowpane"). Read or try the techniques you find and then ask away.

emanuelvilla's picture
emanuelvilla

Hi clazar123, thanks for your comment.

I have not particularly seen those posts you mention, however I do know about that not being direct substitution, I am putting more water (about 10-20% more than indicated in formula) and autolizing, however I only do it for around 20-30 min, wonder if I need to do overnight which I have not tried. And also know about the windowpane test, which after lots of kneading most of my breads do meet this test.

I guess the missing keyword for my searches was "fluffy", because my crumb is actually not that dense, I mean you right, it is dense... but doesn't seem like super different for some reason, and still is very soft and yummy. I am just finding weird that it doesn't expand that much.