The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Rye flour

lsume's picture
lsume

Rye flour

ive been working with yeast dough for over 40 years and I'm still learning.  I'm a retired mechanical engineer and for a fair portion of my career I was the chief engineer in very large complex processing factories.  I big part of what I did involved understanding complex processes and I've used this knowledge in my approach to making various breads.  I've been blessed to learn little things that when added up give me better than advertised rises with my doughs.  I have a question that I've posted in comments at this website as well as others as I recall.  Has anyone found or experimented with Bob's Red Mill light rye flour and compared it to King Arthur medium rye flour?  The price for 3 pounds of the King Arthur medium rye flour delivered is over the top in my opinion.  I made the mistake of buying a large quanatity of another brand of rye flour and ended up throwing all but the little I used on my first loaf of rye using that brand.  I would very much appreciate help on this subject from anyone with experience.  The King Arthur is a great product and I've used some variations of some of their recipes using sour cream or dill pickle juice both of which tasted great.  I've found that I leave my doughs slightly on the wet side and this is especially true for rye bread and French bread.  Something else that I do is bake for significantly less time than the recipes call for.  When the resipe calls for 30 minutes, I set the timer at 26 minutes.  When the timer goes off I turn off the oven and then the timer and then remove the clay loaf pan from the oven and place it in the lower oven to cool while the loaf stays in the ceramic or clay loaf pan. I am on my second bread pal which I use to get uniform slices of the bread.  First, once the loaf has cooled, I remove it from the loaf pan and then place it in a bread bag.  I try to remove as much excess air as is reasonable from the bag and then I put a bag tie on it to seal.  Once the bread has been refrigerated and cooled way down I remove it from the bag and slice it up before reinserting it to the bag.  I purchased 1,000 bread bags and 2 or 3 thousand bag ties.  The bags make a near perfect fit and the ties are 5" as I recall.  The price for both of those products was very cheap as I recall and should last me a lifetim.  I think the bags were 9" x 15" from ULINE and the bag ties were also purchased from Uline,  something else to share is that I use the nitrile type surgical gloves for every loaf.  I bought 350 pairs as I recall for less than $8.00 if memory serves from Sam's Club.  I've seen adds for 1000 pair for less than $50 but I'm not sure if that includes delivery cost. I do suggest that you get gloves with cornstarch added but it's not essential. As I wrote in the aforementioned, I've been blessed to learn many small details that make very large imrovements to the outcome.  I add two full tablespoons of wheat gluten to my rye as well as 2 tablespoons of dough enhancer for professional bakers.  You can find the enhancer at Amazon as well as the gluten but I don't remember for sure where I made that purchase.  I often get 3 X's volume rise by using methodologies that allow for such a significant rise.  In fact, I think I've surpassed even 3X's rise.  The gluten helps to keep the bread from falling while cooling.

 

Thank you for any help you might give.

 

Sugarowl's picture
Sugarowl

Medium rye and light rye are different: https://wholegrainscouncil.org/whole-grains-101/easy-ways-enjoy-whole-grains/grain-month-calendar/rye-triticale-august-grains-0

I'm a beginner, so no word of wisdom to offer, but the link explains the difference in types. Also, that was a lot for one paragraph. I had to read it very slowly to figure out you wanted to know the difference between the types of rye. As for brand, I buy what is at my local grocery store, Arrowhead Mills. It is only one kind, just regular rye and so far it's been fine with the 1,2,3 Method. The dough is slack, but I'm getting used to it. I also either wet my hands (or gloves) and put a spritz of oil on my Silpat.

lsume's picture
lsume

I appreciate your efforts to answer my question.  I felt complelled to share a few things that I've learned about making rye bread and apologize that you had to read through all of that.  My question was very specific for experienced rye bread bakers about the difference between King Arthur Mefium rye flour and any other brand that works as well for less cost.

 

sorry again

Ford's picture
Ford

It sounds to me as though you are going to unnecessary precautions for sanitation.  I never have used gloves in food preparation.  Of course I am a home baker, cook.  I have used both King Arthur and Bob's Red Mill Rye interchangeably.  I find King Arthur in the grocery store, so I have no need to mail order.  As for baking times, I find that using the internal temperature of the loaf as a more reliable gauge of when the loaf is done, ca 200°F.

Ford

lsume's picture
lsume

I started making yeast dough a long time ago as you know from reading my post.  As to the gloves, I wear them not for anything to do with sanitary concerns.  I wear the gloves because when they are oiled from handling the dough, I've found them to be very helpful.  The dough doesn't want to stick to the gloves.  Also, the price per pair is very cheap if you hard search them online. As to the cooking time, I've made so many loaves of bread that I don't measure the flour other than the rye flour and 26 minutes baking time and going through the cooling process that I use yields a loaf of rye that is, in my opinion, better than any that I've ever bought.  The rye bread ends up being very moist and light.  What I was hoping for when I made the post was for someone with experience using an alternat rye flour for King Arthur medium rye and you seem to have hit the mark.  For that I'm thankful and plan to search for Bob's when I finish this response.  We live in Gainesville Florida and I can't find any rye flour anywhere in town regardless of brand.  What I pay for delivered King Arthur medium rye is outrageous in my opinion.  As I recall, Bob's Red Mill rye comes in various types.  I seem to recall one called light.  I'll be researching this for a quick while.  Thanks again.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

with an opinion. Why do you refrigerate your bread? Testing has shown it accelerates staling. 

lsume's picture
lsume

i don't know anything about the research you are referring to but what you've written sounds counterintuitive to be sure.  The logarithmic relationship between the growth of bacteria is reduced tremendously for every degree you lower the stored product.  This chemical relationship is true for almost every life form found in nature.  I've done a great deal of research in my life and on a more personal note the same applies too bread making.  My Amish white bread comes out about the same as a fresh loaf of Wonder Bread.  We generally never buy bread but I have had fresh Wonder Bread and I can use that as a barometer for comparison.  

HansB's picture
HansB

According to Calvel, who has also done a bit of research into bread making, "The baker (and the consumer) should know that staling is accelerated when the product is stored at relatively low temperatures, especially just above the freezing point. However, when the product is brought to a frozen point of -4 to -22F through rapid supercooling, staling is slowed or even stopped, allowing the bread to be stored in a "fresh" state." I myself either freeze my bread or keep it a room temperature for best flavor and freshness.

lsume's picture
lsume

I've read that keeping bread in the fridge makes it go stale faster.  However, as with my own experience, if you want to slow down the growth of mold then refrigeration is the way to go.  There are too many references for me to paste here.  When we used to buy bread, the first pronlem we had was with mold.  I feel like that is the biggest issue that most people are concerned with.  In my case, since my breads are very soft and moist including my rye bread, the only way to slice up the entire loaf is for it to be chilled down in the fridge.  If I dont do that, even with a very fine serrated brend knife, the bread can tare.  We don't eat that much bread since all of our children have grown into adulthood and it's just my wife and I.  Down to the last slice, my bread stays moist even being refrigerated.  Since I'm more concerned with mold, I plan to continue refrigerating my bread.  However, I do agree with the science behind what I've read about bread going stale.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

fine white or medium or coarse.  I love it all!   Rye has to be imported here to Laos and most comes thru Thailand.  And I have some occasional visitors that bring me a few kilos of anything but AP or Wheat bread flour (which is available here.)  

Rye varies from coarse to fine and that means a difference in not only flavour but protein and the natural matrix varies from weak to good depending on which flours are paired with rye and the leavening used.  Naturally I use a lot of rye in my loaves so I'm talking about over half the dough is rye flour.  I will smuggle as little as 5% into a wheat loaf but the bread will behave like a wheat loaf.  Rye loaves over 50% behave more like rye does.... different.  

I haven't hit a rye flour yet that I didn't like. :)

albacore's picture
albacore

I don't think many artisan bakers will be too impressed with the use of commercial dough enhancers in home made bread. If we want that sort of loaf in the UK, we go out and buy one from the supermarket.

lsume's picture
lsume

i don't disagree with you about using dough enhancer but in my quest to keep my very well risen doughs to stay without falling I came across dough enhancer.  Since then, I've found that using wheat gluten serves the purpose so the enhancer isn't necessary.  In fact, I'm fairly sure that the enhancer didn't help keep my loaves from falling a bit while slowly cooling.  That is why I kept searching and reading about wheat gluten doing the job.  I don't currently intend to continue using the enhancer.  Once it's gone it's gone.  I don't put preservatives in my bread and I sell certified organic spices.  I'm not real sure what the enhancer has done.