The Fresh Loaf

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Help!

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

Help!

I've mixed up 250g each of pumpernickel flour and white bread flour following a recipe I hadn't read properly, I know realise it calls for something called Polish Culture, which must be very wet as the only other liquid is a cup of water! 

Forget that then as I don't know what it is let alone have any.

My plan was to make a prototype loaf with drained pickled jalapenos and cheese... I was winging it anyway but now I'm stumped.  Any of you baking geniuses around to help out with quantities of water and starter to have a fighting chance of success? My starter is 100% hydration whole wheat and I need something pretty easy if possible that can bulk overnight and not need too much attention in the morning as Mrs Elsasquerino has gone on a hen party overnight so I'm sole charge of twin 4 year olds!

It never rains...

Thanks

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Not quite sure on the whole picture though. 

As I understand it you now have a mix of 250g pumpernickel flour + 250g bread flour and not sure where to go from here as you have strayed from the recipe. Now you wish to save it by turning it into an overnight sourdough. 

Is that right? 

I'd go for 25g starter and enough water to hydrate the pumpernickel flour by 90% and the bread flour by 65%. 

So 90% of 250g = 225g

And 65% of 250g = 162.5g

Whole wheat I like to hydrate to 80% and in 25g starter you have 12.5g whole wheat. 80% of 12.5g = 10g

So total water = 397.5g but then take off the 12.5g water in your starter and you'll have 385g water CORRECTED! 

I'd make the dough and if it's kneadable then give it a good knead. Cover and bulk ferment overnight. Shape and final proof in the morning. 

If it's very hydrated and more like a paste then give it a stir a few times with 15-20 minutes rest in between, cover and bulk ferment over night. Come morning portion it out into a loaf pan then with the back of a spoon smooth it over. Final proof till small holes just begin to appear on top. But not too many. 

I'd go by feel this is why I've given two scenarios both of which will work depending on what type of dough it makes. 

Edit: the final hydration is 77%. Should make a manageable dough at 50:50 pumpernickel to bread flour ratio. 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

Ignore my rambling below!!

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

We're thinking along the same lines, I'm going to put in 350ml of water 50g of starter which I think you meant? and see how that feels, still going to throw in the cheese and chillies, you only live once. The more I read about pumpernickel flour or cracked rye as my bag calls itself the more I worry it needs soaking in hot water to soften? Soon find out :-) If this one turns out it'll be a miracle. Thanks again, had a feeling you might be around.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Can't resist. 

I worked out how much water to add taking the water in the starter in account. So the final figure I came up with was on top of adding the starter. But by all means hold back some water and add it slowly till it feels right rather than adding more flour afterwards. 

I think I made a bit of a boo boo. 5% starter is not 50g but 25g! I did have that in mind but for some odd reason when I was working it all out I did 10%. I'll adjust it! 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

You did say 25g of starter but then further down you took off 25g of water allowing for the starter... I would only have deducted 12.5 g as half the starter is flour... I then assumed you had meant 50g starter?? I'm totally confusing myself haha

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It was me who said 25g starter and then went to calculate 50g starter. You were right to take off 12.5g water. 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

It's very sloppy but going to leave it to suck up some hydration for an hour see what happens

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

So this is 25g starter + 250g pumpernickel + 250g bread flour + 350g water?

Something is off as I'd expect a dough from that. It's only around 70% hydration and it's 50% pumpernickel. 

See what happens. If you do add more flour then make sure you add more salt in the right percentage. 

If you choose not to then stir the mix 3 to 4 times with 15 minutes rests in-between. Cover and bulk ferment overnight. Come morning make the bread in a loaf pan like a cake. Portion it out, smooth over, allow to rise till a hole or two appears on top then bake in a preheated oven. 

Best of luck. 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

It's thickening up already, not kneadable but then I expected 50% rye to be a troublesome dough. This is my first experience with pumpernickel flour and it seems everso course, I have nothing to guage it against but as I said it's billed as cracked rye although the write up claimed it was for use in pumpernickel bread. The only reference I have is using it in a soaker previously but I'm intrigued to see what's going to come out with this one. Might be a winner, and you'll obviously take half the credit. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Wet hand under the dough then fold over into the middle. Go round the dough and repeat. Do this 4x with some rests. 

Looking forward! 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

It's like trying to fold porridge, seems like no gluten at all hopefully the long overnight ferment will do it some good. This is a whole new ball park for me.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I am still surprised and something tells me that some other mistake has been made in the confusion. 

However, just do the stirring 3-4x with rests in between. This will be like kneading and you'll continue as if it is 100% rye and 90% hydration. The gluten will be bell like. 

Then continue tomorrow as discussed in a loaf pan. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

tablespoon of vinegar or lemon juice into the total liquids  just to get some help from the rye bits.  

By the way, a poolish is a concoction of half flour half water with a pinch of yeast allowed to ferment from 8 to 12 hours (timing depends on the temperature and flour type) and usually includes half the dough flour.  That might help to understand the original recipe.  

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I have a nice recipe for pumpernickel rye that has rye flour, cracked rye (aka rye chops) and whole rye berries. I find the chops and berries to be tooth-crackingly hard, so I tend to soak the chops and actually cook the whole berries before putting them in the dough. Whole rye flour often benefits from a scald as well, so you could try making the poolish (Polish culture) with the wheat flour, water and a bit of yeast, and then boiling the rest of the water and mixing it with the rye flour. All kinds of options! I can't wait to see the results... :) Oh, and good luck with the twins!

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

https://www.amazon.com/Ed-Wood-Polish-Sourdough-Culture/dp/B006TMQ692#

This is what's billed as 'Polish culture' it's not a poolish but an additive for a sourdough starter. Sounds like a money making scheme as the formula and hydration are held back until you buy the sachet. 

Anyway, let the fun commence. I'll report back soon.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It is a dried sourdough culture that needs a few days to activate before use. 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

Now the torture begins, 24 hours before cutting is sensible I'm guessing? So interested what the crumb is going to look like. So far so good though, I think.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Looks like a successful Rye bread.

Very confident it'll be as good inside as it is out. 

24 hours for a Rye bread is right.  

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yes, that looks like a nice loaf. Check out this reference to "zakwas (zaczyn) chlebowy" which seems to be Polish for sourdough culture. The link is here, and the reference is about a third of the way down the page. Or this one, where the sourdough culture is made with rye flour and milk!

 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

special thanks to Lechem for helping me out with quantities and everyone else who offere insight on this thread... Much appreciated! 

i updated the top image with a crumb shot just wish you could taste it, it's all I hoped it might be. The chilli and cheese make it extra special, doesn't even need butter. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And so glad I was part of it. Sometimes an off the cuff loaf turns out as one of the better successes. Nice save. 

Never done a pumpernickel chilli and cheese loaf. A bit different to the Borodinsky bread I often bake. Interesting combo and one to try myself. Now where do I get pumpernickel flour? 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/the-priors-organic-cracked-rye-flour.html

Very good supplier for all sorts of things! If your going to try it here's the low down.

250g pumpernickel 

250g bread flour 

2 generous tablespoons chopped pickled jalapeño slices

85g roughly chopped or grated cheddar cheese

8g salt 

30g starter (I got a bit carried away)

355ml water

you know the method :-)

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

This actually sounds like a very interesting recipe and really something I've never tried before. 

One last question. I have chilli pepper spice. And I've heard of whole jalapeños. But what is pickled jalapenos and do they come as a slice (for which I can substitute for some other chilli) or are they simply chopped up? 

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions. I'll order the pumpernickel flour. 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

Knowledge is for sharing, that's what I love about this site. 

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/gb/groceries/old-el-paso-jalapenos-215g?langId=44&storeId=10151&krypto=NiIp6AInYnYbndDUSGaEqjU8x...

This is what I used, I'd heard that a little vinegar in a rye loaf can help, as mini confirmed further up the thread, that's why I picked pickled chilli but im sure fresh would work too. Most supermarkets sell them with the Mexican foods, in fact a lot of corner shops have them too these days, they're very handy. I just scooped a load of slices out and roughly chopped, seed and all, and put in roughly 2 tablespoons which is ok for my taste.

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Something ive never picked up though. Always a little scared of chillis. Dont laugh :)  Sounds easy enough though. Drain, chop, add. 

I've got the perfect cheese in mind too. Try and go easy on the lactose (can take a little but intolerant in high doses) but there is a nice cheese by Arla which is lactose free (well almost!). Tastes as good as any other cheddar cheese. Although I do cheat a little and treat myself to regular cheese like Cathedral City, I think when using a lot I'll go for Arla. 

A recipe is forming. Thank you! 

Elsasquerino's picture
Elsasquerino

the jar I sent the link to is actually in brine not pickle in vinegar like mine were, sure it wouldn't make much difference but might be worth adding a little vinegar as mini said if you used these ones. Let me know how you get on if you try it.