I suck at kneading! (achieving extensibility)
Hi,
I'm Don, and I suck at kneading. I have tried every kneading technique I can find, classic palm-of-the-hand, stretch and fold, slap and fold, smear and fold, leave-it-in-the-bowl stretch and fold, etc. But none of these techniques ever work for me like they do in the books / videos.
Example: Bertinet's method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBO4XyL3iM
If you watch Bertinet in the above video, the dough starts out shaggy, and simply gets smoother and more extensible with each fold. I'm not sure how long this takes in real time, but it appears to be 10 to 15 minutes.
This is NOT what happens when I do the same method. Instead what I get is a hard inextensible rubber ball of dough.
Time 0: Shaggy mass
0-5 minutes: dough gets less shaggy, more sticky and loose
5-10 minutes: dough starts to get slightly smoother, less sticky.
10-15 minutes: dough gets less sticky and tightens up. Dough is still grainy/veiny, and will not window-pane
15-30 minutes: dough gets really tight, inelastic. Not extensible, snaps back to orignal shape. Won't window-pane
30-45 minutes: no change. Still a tight inelastic ball. I have to really slam the dough hard on the counter to stretch it.
45-60 minutes: dough starts to relax (slightly).
60-75 minutes: dough continues to relax.
75-90 minutes: dough finally relaxes enough to window-pane.
This is ridiculous! I've read enough bread forums to know that you shouldn't need to knead for 90 minutes. (The end-result of the 90 minute kneading is pretty good, but it's a crazy amount of work!)
- I've tried varying the hydration, from 60% all the way to 90%, in 5% increments.
- I've tried various autolyze times, from 15, 30, 60, 120 minutes.
- I've tried King Arthur bread flour and Gold Medal AP flour. The KA flour is thirstier, but no difference in how long I have to knead.
- I've tried witholding the salt until late in kneading.
- I've tried doing the kneading in 10 minute stages, with 5 minutes rests in between
None of these made any difference to elasticity of the dough. I always get a hard inelastic ball that I have to really work hard to stretch.
Has anyone else experienced this? How do I avoid/minimize the tight-inelastic-ball-of-dough phase?
Thanks,
Don
There are many no-knead recipes out there. My own "low-impact" method only needs about 30 seconds worth. And forget the window pane. You don't need it. Mix everything. Leave 30 minutes, light knead, leave to ferment, shape, proof, bake.
-Gordon
It is my opinion that you are over-handling the dough. The more you handle it the more it tightens-up so I suggest you go to a method of mix to shaggy, rest half an hour, do a series of stretch and fold, rest half and hour, and so forth, until you get the extensibility you need.
As one who makes a lot of baguettes I am always trying to find the yin and yang between elasticity and extensibility when I am shaping the loaves. When I find myself fighting elasticity I let the dough rest for a few minutes, whereby the elasticity gives way a bit. When I pick-up the semi-shaped baguette and try to finish my shaping the elasticity returns but less quickly and I am able to produce the final shape.
The type of flour you use and the amount of hydration will also affect this balance.
Extensibility is the relaxation of the gluten strands and you can only achieve this in two ways; let the dough rest for a while or press the development to the point of destroying the gluten strands.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I'm willing to try that (I've tried just about everything else), but there's no resting in the Bertinet video I posted. He doesn't even let the dough autolyze. He just goes straight from mixing ingredients to kneading to done. How is this possible?
Try a kitchen aid and get a new bag of all purpose flour and if it still doesn't work maybe call the ghostbusters (they're ready to believe you)
I have a KitchenAid. Sadly it's the version that won't take a spiral hook, only a J hook. The J-hook doesn't do that good a job of kneading. I can use the KitchenAid for the first half of kneading, but to get a good result (a loaf which will hold it's shape), I have to finish kneading by hand.
That's the ticket - I use it exclusively - 8 minutes on lowest speed then 2-3 on highest (6-7 for American flour) for 70%+ dough
I can get a window-pane with my J-hook too. But the resulting dough won't form a decent loaf. Despite the window-paning, after proofing the dough is still veiny/grainy, and not that extensible. When I try to form a loaf, the skin always tears. The proofed loaf won't hold it's shape.
Note: I totally believe you that it works for you. It just doesn't work for me. I don't know why. (I've offended the gluten gods somehow). I believe the Bertinet approach works for people. Just not for me.
I would love to be able just use my KitchenAid, and skip the 90-minute workout, but so far the 90-minute workout is the only approach that produces a loaf that looks close to 'right', like in the how-to pictures.
Don, I finally took the time to watch the video to which you referred and I now have a better understanding of the Bertinet method. You may also want to take a look at this video as it is a different method to achieve the same goal:
http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-mix-wet-dough/
Aeration is the general method with both of these videos as the overall intent is to work air into the dough. Providing more exposure to air will cause the gluten to form faster, whether it is the slap-and-fold method shown in the Bertinet video or the scooping method shown in the Wilson video. Using a power mixer on a relatively higher speed will also have this affect on the dough.
One point I'd like to make is that in your initial post you referenced "extensibility", which is a relaxing of the gluten. I believe you are striving for greater elasticity, which is what tightens the gluten structure. My original post was based on trying to achieve a balance between elasticity and extensibility. Apparently I was aiming at the wrong target.
Time will also develop the gluten which is the basis for my original posting. You could leave the shaggy dough in the bowl and as I first mentioned, do a periodic series of stretch-and-folds, either in the bowl or on the bench, and develop both flavor and gluten over a series of hours. It all depends on how you want to go about it. Trust me - it works over time too.
Many posters here agree that the windowpane test is not a metric for making good bread. I have to admit that I never strive for windowpane but instead learn to read the dough as it is developing and fermenting.
Jim
I've tried that too. That's what I called "leave-it-in-the-bowl stretch and fold" in my 1st post. I have the same issue here. The dough gets tight so that you can't "scoop" it with your hand. (I feel like I could make a comical youtube channel of just videos of me trying different kneading techniques and having them all go south. :-/ )
Something is wrong here - may be you should post some pics ?
the flour. All the details including how it is stored, age, how it tastes raw or any "after" tastes.
Perhaps a one-on-one skype from kitchen to kitchen would help. :)
My flour is just King Arthur bread flour, stored in a glass jar like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ET3RS9Y/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I go thru a bag of flour about once a month, so it's never that old.
I have tried Gold Medal all-purpose flour too, just to see if my issue was specific to my flour brand. (It's not.)
I will try to post some pics this weekend. (I typically only bake on the weekends)
I had a problem with crusts coming out like concrete and was told it was due to overkneading. I now use a KitchenAid J hook, being careful not to overknead, and have been getting much better results ever since.
A dough hydration of 64% works well for me. I watch the dough intently and stop when a dough ball has formed. By that point the gluten has formed a "cloak" around the dough ball and can be touched with the finger without sticking.
They make no-knead bread with no kneading at all so I figure this way works OK.
Dan Lepards method is pretty gppd tpp @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loAGmUj4VL8
Dan said that only let the dough rise by half. Does that mean let the dough becomes 1.5 times in size, not doubling?
yep - you want to be sure that theres still life left in the dough before it goes into the oven as you want it to spring - that all about looking at youre proofing dough, feeling it and giving it a poke - heres a great video that helped me alot @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFakPswlQrY
Hi Don, I have had the same experience. You can make bread a thousand different ways and I'm sure you don't need great extensibility if you don't want to produce world class baguettes. The proper balance between gluten strength and extensibility along with oven spring is what you need to achieve the kind of open crumb you will find in a world class tradition baguette or neopolitan pizza. It sounds like you know the theoretical concepts pretty well. The variable you and I are missing here is the quality and freshness of the flour, and the formula. It is difficult in the states to find freshly milled flour of the right kind. You want it less than three days old. Using same day as milled is preferable. Hard white wheat is probably best. You also have to adjust the amount of water in the formula depending on the flour.
Good luck!
Hi Don (and others),
Sorry that the kneading is frustrating you. Sounds like you've been trying all sorts of things. Just my two cents - I don't knead by hand. I have weak hands and make countless loaves of bread a week for my big family. So I use my Bosch Mixer that I got several years back. I read a comment about someone using a Kitchen Aid too. I haven't ever used one but that could be an option too. I just know that my mixer is a workhorse at quickly and efficiently mixing and kneading my bread dough so I can whip out 6 loaves in about an hour. I found the inspiration from a post from a great baking blog I follow. If you bake bread frequently, I think you should consider getting some kind of stand mixer. But I do know that some people prefer to stick to hand kneading, so it's all just a personal preference. I hope this helps a little and offers some more insight into options. Best of luck!
Hi Don, did you figure out the problem? I have the same problem myself: kneading sourdough for an hour and it's still a mess. But I found this video and I think it might be my problem. Haven't tried it yet, but worth a shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oednglADc0M
Cheers!