How to get more hydration to old fashion breads
Good morning :
I am not new in bread making and successfully make the sourdough breads. Lately, I wanted to make Whole Grain breads the old fashion way with yeast, hand knead , raised 3 times....
I made Oatmeal wholewheat bread( I cheated here by mixing 1/2 bread flour here since I don't have enough home grind wholewheat flour ). I used a recipe from the Laurel's kitchen Bread Book. I have to add more water(1/4 c.) because the dough is too dry.
The bread tasted wonderful but kneading more than 10 minutes was awful because the dough is very sticky. I did not add any more flour but wet my hand and continued to knead as the recipe said.
The bread crumb are soft but there is no "hydration " holes at all!!!!
How could I add more "holes" to this breads without destroy the bread totally?
thaichef.
from part of the oatmeal. That might also help with the stickiness.
It's all about technique - dough handling. If you "knock back" and triple knead the dough then you'll get traditional style loafs, regardless of the hydration.
Have a read at this and watch the video:
http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/
-Gordon
Hello Mini Oven and Drogon:
Thank you both for your kind advice .
To Drogon: Thank you for a very interesting link. As my post stated, I too am a sourdough baker for more than 5 years and am able to get a big "holes" just like the video. It is the old fashion bread which I try to make and because I am new at the wholegrain baking,it gave me trouble. I followed the instructions to the "T" because I am new to that kind of baking. I have to rethinking of the technique and will try to make it with stretch and fold instead of 3 punch down and let it rises . Let's see if I can get it to have a better crumbs.
Thanks,
Thaichef.
... doesn't have big holes, so I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve. I make 100% wholemeal loaves and they don't have big holes - which is intentional as my old fashioned customers complain when I make them like ciabatta.
Your original message suggested that you should have holes due to the high hydration - I pointed out that hydration does not automatically mean holes. If you want holes, then you need to change the technique - they don't come for free with high hydration - you need to work for ... nothing ;-)
If you want a high hydration wholemeal bread, then you need to autolyse to get best effect. 2 hours or overnight. Mix flour & water and leave it - then add the yeast & salt and start the mixing, stretch and folds. Trevor Wilson has a video on that too - you'll never get as big holes as a loaf with mostly white flour, but that's bran in wholemeal for you.
-Gordon
Hello Gordon:
Thanks again for trying to help me with whole grain bread making. Perhaps If I give this bread recipe then it may be better understanding? Here it is:
1/1/3 c. raw old fashion oat. 2 c. boiling water, 2 tsp. active dry yeast( I used fast acting which per King Arthur flour it is o.k.) 1/3 c. warm water( to dissolve the dry yeast . I include it even though I used Instant dry yeast). 3 table spoon honey, 5 c. freshly ground whole wheat flour( mine is not freshly ground). 1/4 c. vegetable oil.
The direction instructed me to cook the oat and set it aside for several hours or over night.( I set mine aside for 5 hr.) I have to add 1/4 c. of warm water ( 1 tbsp. at a time because the dough was really dry. I also have to wet my hands several time during the kneading so that is some more water. )
What I mean that the bread has no big holes I meant that the crumb is very tight and the bread is soft but it seems dry with tight texture. I do not want my bread to be like Ciabatta but hope to have better crumb hydration. Thanks again for your help.
Thaichef
I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to things like wholemeal bread - so if it's wholemeal bread I'm making then that's all it is - no oats, oil or honey. I have always wondered about adding oats to bread though - I did once use a commercial seed mix that had oats in it (the usual steam cooked porridge oats) and I felt it didn't really add anything. However - maybe some thrifty fellow countryman once upon a time.. (I'm Scottish, go figure ;-)
So high hydration wholemeal breads - autolyse, autolyse, autolyse. Mix your flour and water and leave for 2 hours or more before adding the salt & yeast and kneading. My wholemeal loaf works out at between 75 and 80% water, depending on the mill I buy the flour from. It won't knead like a drier dough, but you can do some stretch and folds on it, leave it to bulk ferment (usual 1-hour with commercial yeast), then re-shape, and into a tin. Another hour max. (don't wait for it to double - that's too much, you really only want 1.5 times volume expansion here) then into hot oven (250°C) for 12-15 minutes, then down to 210°C until baked.
This is something I did a while back:
That's using "golden wholemeal", I think sometimes called "White wholemeal" in the US.
That was an 80% hydration dough and possibly marginally on the point of over proofing. I'm making a batch of 4-6 of these 2-3 times a week right now. (Although different flour - a red wheat and only a tiny fraction of yeast for an overnight bulk ferment)
-Gordon
Hello Gordon: Your bread looks awesome and the crumb is what I am trying to accomplish.
Reading your explanation I realized that my bread must be really low in hydration that was why it is so very dry. Since your bread is a picture of perfection is there any way that you can give me the recipe to also try too? I would really appreciated it but if you can't , it is o.k. too.
On your last sentence you said that you use "Red wheat with tiny fraction of yeast"...we have something similar using any kind of flour and long fermentation period . It is called " No knead bread but it was not wholegrain .
About me : I teach Thai cooking in a small town in VA. I graduated form a culinary college in Chiangmai Thailand in tradition Thai cooking. You can look at my cooking school on Facebook . The address is :sml International cooking school.( sml is the area that I live in VA. It is stands for "smith Mountain Lake")
. It seems that the crumb in this bread is perfect because it is a high hydration bread.
To us in America, Oat meal bread is a comfort, homemade bread which people love.
Thanks again Gordon for taking the time to explain to me a new bread technique.
Mantana
I think I posted it earlier, but for a large loaf; 550g stoneground wholemeal flour, between 400 and 440g water, 7g yeast (instant dried, 14g fresh) and 9g salt.
Mix water and flour, leave 2 or more hours covered, then mix in the salt and yeast. Knead or stretch & fold as best you can. Leave an hour, tip out, pre-shape, rest, shape into a tin, prove, bake. (250°C for 12 minutes, down to 210 for another 25)
For the overnight method, It's almost a no-knead method, but I use a mixer - I throw everything into a mixer, mix it up and leave it for as long as I can (I always make these last), then give it another brief mix then into the bench, clean that mixer, then a few stretch & folds and into a tub... however the yeast quantity is down to 1.5 to 1.8g per loaf (depending on temperature). The water used is variable - it depends on the flour - right now I'm using stoneground wholemeal from Cann Mill (Stoates) and it's a little "thirstier" than the last lot I used. In the morning, it gets tipped out, and a stretch & fold to bring it into one big boulle (6 loaves worth), then scaled, pre-shape, rest, shape into tins, proof, bake.
-Gordon
Thaichef, You need to soak ALL the flour, not just the oats. Gordon is telling you that ALL the flour needs to have adequate time to absorb the water. It takes a lot of time for those little branny bits in wholewheat to actually absorb the water. They are like wet sticks- you want them absolutely waterlogged (like a stick at the bottom of the river rather than a wet stick floating) or they will just absorb the moisture from the crumb after the loaf is baked and the bread will be dry and crumbly.
The oats make the dough sticky just like handling rye bread dough. Handle with damp (not wet) hands and table that you dampen often or do stretch and folds for less handling. I usually use a scraper to help. Using bench flour is NOT advised.It will never become not sticky-no matter how much bench flour you use- and you will be baking a brick. Alternately, too wet hands and you can make your dough into a slimy mess. You become proficient with practice.
I'm with some others here. High hydration will help improve large holes in the crumb but it is mire important not to manipulate it too much or often with knocking back/degassing and kneading so much. If you deflate and let rise 3 times with normal kneading of any kind will just make the crumb dense no matter how wet the dough is, Best to do a bulk ferment, then shape and let proof using time and gentle stretch and folds with wet dough to get an open crumb.
I thin you are getting what I would expect usnig the techniques you are currently using. Happy baking ThaiXhef
Good Afternoon everyone:
I am so very thankful and very grateful for everyone who help me with this bread. The reason that I did this bread, was try to get more wholegrain for my family. I have no sourdough starter at the moment so I am trying this bread book using yeast and the old fashion way. The book is Laurel's kitchen "Bread book" . The book was last print more than 33 years ago and since I am not familiar with this method , I followed it to the T. Now with all the advises , I will try it again.
First my thank to Gordon: Thank you so much for the recipe and clear direction.( also a lot easier too). One question: 550 grams makes 6 loaves? I will definitely try your recipe . I am very grateful to you for given me this recipe. Thanks.
Claza: Thank you. If you read my explanation to Gordon above, you will see that it is the first time that I am making this wholegrain bread from the bread book that was more than 33 years old. Not knowing how it is going to turn out , I follow the instruction in the book by the letter. Now with the help of everyone, I will try again and hopefully can produce something similar to Gordon bread above.
Dabrownman: So very nice to get your advice too. Thanks. I need to get back to baking breads ( and more again) . I had been quite busy to the point that I bought breads for my husband from the grocery store or make bread in the bread machine!!! Believe it or not.
You are an x Thaichef??? Really? Ha, ha. Not many people in my area want to learn how to make Thai food anymore . They want to eat it so I am now into starting to make the "Thai box food" ( same as Hello Fresh). as soon as the government o.k. it , it will start. Now you know why I am too busy even to make bread for my family.
Thank you Guys. So nice to come back to my Bread making family again.
Thaichef.
550g is one large loaf. That (plus water, etc.) will bake what what we regard as a lerge loaf in the UK - 800g baked weight. For small, 400g baked weight loaves, I'd use 330 to 350g of flour and water scaled appropriately. For 6 small loaves I'd be using 6 * 330 = 1980g flour and 1560-1580g water.
-Gordon
Good Morning:
As always, thanks. I reread your(previous post ) and the new one and now understand perfectly. I now have to recalculate my old Oatmeal bread recipe, add more water and have longer fermentation period, less hard kneading. Thanks, Gordon.
Mantana