The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Baguette with my levain?

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Baguette with my levain?

I've got this fantastic levain (only made it two months ago but still proud of it ;) ) and what I'd like to know is if there's any way to get close to a "baguette tradition" like I used to have when I lived in Paris using this levain? I've tried reading Chad Robertson's Tartine baguetter recipe but I'm finding it confusing and Forkish's book, though it taught me how to make my sourdough boules, doesn't talk about baguettes.

If anyone can shed some light on what recipe I can follow to use my levain, I'd appreciate it. Thank you!

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Flour yeast water and either levure or levain.  The bakeries in France do either or both so yes you should be able to produce something similar - wayne caddy has pretty good video (ignore the part about poolish at the beginning) - https://youtu.be/gp0GwG4wVHo 

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Do you happen to have any idea what amounts of flour, levain, and water Wayne Caddy uses in that video? It either seems aimed at people who know already some standard recipe that I don't know about or is the cooking video person who wants you to buy a book. :)

Thanks!

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

Originally baguettes were designed to be made fast, baked hot, and out the door in a hurry. In turn the products and processes made for a bland and bleached dough. I recommend you read this article to get an understanding of the history of the baguette. Thank you Mr. Macguire.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/anatomy+baguette/8229257/story.html

 I use a modified Team USA formula for my baguettes and it includes both a poolish and a levain. While the flavor is improved by this method I find the structure suffers a bit.

 

Jim

alfanso's picture
alfanso

if you already have a few favorite levain breads that you like, you can shape just about any into a baguette.  I'm the living proof of that, basically because that is what I do.  One area where care may be necessary is to stay away from a too high hydration dough early on, as these can be tricky to work with in baguette structure.

You don't say what the composition or hydration of your levain is, but that really doesn't play into the equation all that much, as builds for levains can quickly be converted to whatever you need, or a formula can be converted to accommodate your levain.  There is a lot of wiggle room in that regard.

Here's a "starter kit" that might be of interest to you, and that will depend on the bread's characteristics you are looking for.  You can look them up in the TFL search box for more information.  Another way is in Google with a search criteria that reads as (ex.) "tartine baguettes site:thefreshloaf.com" .  This will provide you with much quicker search results than through the TFL search box.

  • SJSD (San Joaquin Sour Dough) by dmsnyder is a perennial favorite on TFL in all forms.
  • Gosselin "baguettes tradition" with levain.
  • Hamelman Pain au Levain (in all formats).
  • SFBI Pain au Levain
  • Hamelman Vermont SD
  • Tartine baguettes (uses both a levain and poolish)
  • FWSY (Forkish) Field Blend #2 with 75% hydration - too wet at 78%)
  • Baguettes Tradition by Sam Fromartz 

The list can go on and on for baguettes with differing characteristics and flour combinations as they stray further afield, but this should provide you with something to pique your interest.  If any of these do interest you and you need to find out more info, don't hesitate to ask away.  We're a helpful bunch here at TFL, that is, except when we all run off for the circus together from time to time...

alan

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Thanks for all those leads. I've looked into all of them and I'm clearly missing something... none of these give recipe ingredient amounts. Or even much in the way of directions. That Wayne Caddy video (link above doesn't work, had to find it myself) looks great but unless I've missed it, again there are no ingredient quantities. I'm going to be an even bigger noob and tell you that I have no idea what the hydration of my levain is. I'll take a crack and say that when I feed my levain, I feed 50g of levain with 250 flour and 200 water, which in my head means 80% hydration. Is that correct?

Anyway, I see all these methods and people talking very expertly about them but nobody saying X amount flour, Y amount water, and then directions. So I have no idea what to do. Also I'd say that field blend #2 looks from the photos nothing like a "baguette tradition" which is what I was going for. That colour is way too dark on the crust. And the crumb is different as well.

Hope everyone can understand my confusion.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

As others have mentioned, just about any French country bread formula will work. Changing the size and shape makes it into a baguette. With that said, here is a formula I use:

This formula is currently scaled for 5, 320 gram baguettes. If you are handy with spreadsheets you can create your own and scale the formula accordingly. And, some of us still remember how to scale it without a computer :-)

   - Build your levain and poolish about 8 - 12 hours before your final mix. Mature at room temperature.

   - Mix levain, poolish, final water and final flour to shaggy and let rest for 20 minutes.

   - Add in remaining yeast, salt and malt (malt not necessary if you do not have diastatic malt on hand) and mix by hand or with machine to develop gluten and incorporate ingredients. Let rest an hour at room temperature.

   - Stretch and fold then let rest about half an hour to an hour, depending on how the dough develops.

   - Divide, shape into rounds, cover then let rest for about 20 minutes.

   - Final shape into baguettes and let proof in couche (covered) for 30 - 60 minutes. 

   - Transfer to parchment or peel, score, then bake at 500 F. for about 20 - 22 minutes, 8 of those minutes with steam.

   - Remove from oven and let cool for an hour or more.

Times and temperatures may vary depending on your particular location and environment. 

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

Thank you so much for all that effort, and I will read it. But I'm looking for something that is like the "Baguette Tradition" made in France using my levain. And that baguette never has poolish or malt. I doubt it has yeast in addition to the levain either.

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

If you read the James MacGuire article that I referenced in an earlier post you will learn that the original baguettes didn't include any levain - only yeast. The better flavor was therefore introduced by the poolish since yeast was the only leavening used. The fact is that levain is the non-traditional ingredient, not the yeast.

As to the malt, diastatic malt is most often added in this formula for crust coloration.

So, if you are looking for the traditional baguette made in France the formula would only include yeast as a leavening and flavor-enhancing agent.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

I think I made the mistake of assuming because of the forum, that certain terms would be known everywhere. Slightly selfish mistake.
A "Baguette Tradition" in France is an actual bread type. It's not a loose translation, as I might have seemed to be suggesting with the quotes. By a law enacted in 1993, a baguette tradition can only contain four ingredients: flour, leavening, water, and salt. Levain is always the leavening although in rare cases, some bakeries will use yeast.

It's not at all the "original baguette", it's a completely different (and, altogether more delicious) animal. :) And while Robertson's baguette comes close in his Tartine book, a tradition never uses poolish.

So, to restate my question -- because it's been lost a bit in the discussion -- does anyone know how I can make a "baguette tradition" using just my own levain and flour and water? Does anyone have a recipe particularly for that specific bread? Thank you!!

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

TPA, sorry for any confusion and I too would be interested in the formula to which you refer.

 

Jim

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Baguette de tradition is more often made with bakers yeast - the boulanger may choose between a levain or bakers yeast and since the 1993 law also stipulates a price limit its more economically feasible to bake with regular yeast but the yeast remains 'choix du boulanger' There's a American woman online who struts around Paris charging tourists to educate them on breads and confidently states after slicing open a baguette blanche juxtaposed against the beautiful creamy crumb of baguette de tradition and says 'see that's a sign of the natural levain' as if to imply all good baguettes are made with a levain. Its just not true and to some extent producing a quality baguette de tradition with bakers yeast can be more if a challenge to coax complexity out of less complex leavening agent. To make things even more interesting some bakers make a hybrid whereby a fortified levain (with bakers yeast) is used and so they actually incorporate 5 ingredients and since the lines are blurred by using two yeasts technically still yeast they still pass the requirements and called baguette de tradition. Then there's the matter of what's in the flour - this can contain at least 4 additive (fava flour, soy flour, wheat malt flour and ascorbic acid). 

The bottom,line is you want to build a baguette de tradition sur levain and probably having challenges finding a recipe the exact reason sited above ... That more often yeast is used exclusively or in conjunction with a levain.  But here's a recipe using only levain https://www.stellacuisine.com/baguettes-au-levain/

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

THAT is fascinating. Ok. So is there a recipe I can follow with just regular bakers yeast? (I'm guessing you're referring to the one you find in health food stores that's usually in a fridge wrapped in little paper packets like stock cubes?)

This hybrid you're referring to, is that poolish? If so Chad Robertson does this in his book Tartine.

On that woman in Paris, I think I not only know who you're talking about but I might actually know her personally and her staff on those tours. :)

My wife and I have had such success with our levain in Forkish's sourdough boule that we thought if we could replicate the tradition we'd just be over the moon. We did a levain recipe online and found it too dense. Very much like the one you linked to. Not airy enough. Then we tried one we got the recipe for when we did a bread class at 'Le Pain Quotidien' when we lived in New York a few years ago. But that one is prett much just really airy white bread and doesn't have the flavour of a tradi. So we're stuck for what to try.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

You should be able to get very close using robin hood ap flour which is remarkably similar to French flour unlike American counterparts which have underwhelming flavor and gluten characteristics (often due to milling techniques and barley malt additions [amount other things]). Btw there's a great baker on plateau called monsieur pinchot who does a great baguette. As for hybrid, no I am not referring to a poolish as this is just another spin on methods using bakers yeast. Probability is in France your baguette de tradition would be made with bakers yeast using a cold ferment as probably the most popular technique. Next probably a poolish preferment. By hybrid I mean simply a levain based loaf boosted with a pinch of bakers yeast yes like the little packets you get in well any store for that matter. Fewer bbakeries opt to do a strictly levain based baguette de tradition because as such they would have to offer it at a price point that is restrictive to profitability so if they do they may rename it and boost the price. So if all that matters is you want to taste what you get in France then a good strategy would be to follow say Louis lamore or Noel christoph - and also realize that obsessing on a levain is not the key to an airy baguette. It just takes tons of repetition and knowing each step intimately. Example 20 minutes of overproofong and forget it your baguette will be a flat feast for the birds. Wrong / low temps in your oven will result in sandwich bread. Underproof and you get a long hard stick. At the end of the day its just a deceptively hard loaf to master and after personally baked 100s of pounds of baguette I still produce junk on a day that had one or two distractions. Here's two great links that show baguette tradition one for,cold ferment and one for poolish. Cold ferment by Louis lamore with decree 1993 details that should put to bed your concerns about levain - https://youtu.be/DkHsbchF2-g Baguette de tradition sur poolish par Noel christoph -https://youtu.be/5foLju_YK_M And for fun bread tours in Paris by mega expert meg zimbeck making dough from tourists - https://youtu.be/ntrp7i5CrfA Ps pain quotedien - a bit over rated if it were me I would strike up conversation in plateau at monsieur pinchot before pain quotedien any day. Please also realize I make baguette for the exact reason that I want to eat what I came to love in Paris and antibes and nice etc so I vouch for the above methods :)

kendalm's picture
kendalm

As mentioned before and to reiterate the point about the 'hybrid' sourdough baguette - I just read the decree again in more detail and article 4 mentions that is building a levain based baguette that up to .2% bakers yeast is allowed. That is what I meant by hybrid. On a side note, the english translation has a small error where it talks about the co.position of the starter. The English says it may be made from wheat or rye but the French source says wheat and rye, or either. I had read this before but never saw that detail so quite interesting !

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

You might find this article interesting.

http://www.cooksinfo.com/french-bread-law-1993

While a formula is not defined proportions are.

tinpanalley's picture
tinpanalley

I've never found the actual decree. Cool.

I should've just asked the baker on our corner in Paris if he had a recipe but the problem is I always felt bad like he was gonna think I wouldn't ever buy his tradition any more. And we were regulars. Like 3 times a week. So he'd have known if I'd have gone in there saying, "hey, sooo... what exactly is your recipe for these?..."

One thing for sure is that among "tradis" as they're called, they pretty much all taste the same. Different degrees of toastiness, thinness, some are really slim in the middle with big bulbs on the end, but really they're all the same. So there must be some standard somewhere of proportions.

kendalm's picture
kendalm

100% flour

2% salt

Generally between 65%-70% water

About 10%-20% a 100% hydrated levain

jimbtv's picture
jimbtv

kendalm writes, " At the end of the day its just a deceptively hard loaf to master and after personally baked 100s of pounds of baguette I still produce junk on a day that had one or two distractions."

Amen brother! 

kendalm's picture
kendalm

Actually that quote of 'deceptively hard' I think came from Wayne caddy. He is great and really fun to watch but its the truth no doubt about it :)