The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Failure to hold boule shape.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Failure to hold boule shape.

Baking "White Bread With Poolish"  in Forkish, p. 98.  

Through four folds dough continued to be very sticky and not hold a Boule  shape.  Not enough tension in the dough.  What do you think caused this?   Room was warmer than Forkish mentions (my room was 73 degrees.)  Too much time fermenting poolish or mixed dough?   Something else.  Appreciate advice?  Jim

  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

until it gets ito the basket.  I don't worry about it the dough should keep getting more structures as time goes on.  Your flour may not have as much gluten forming proteins as his dies and you flour may nt be able to take as much water as a result too.  I think you will be surprised when it is baked.

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

i found this comment comment very comforting...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I dig out a screwdriver and take the handle off my small frying pan.  Butter it up or press in some baking parchment baking the dough in that form of insurance.  :)    I would wait for the bake, too.

I might do the last stretch top skin side down on a floured surface just to see if that helps a little bit against the stickiness.  

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

As others have said, it could be a lot of things from flour and temperature to inadequate gluten development. Bread dough is funny that way. :) Reduce the hydration a bit, or try Trevor Wilson's method for developing dough.

Couple of other things to try - pop the dough into the fridge for an hour or so before shaping to firm it up a bit. Are you baking in a Dutch oven or other pot? I bake in smaller cast iron pots, and have on occasion folded all the edges of the flat pancake 'boule' into the middle, picked it up by the folded part in the middle and plopped it into the hot pot. It baked beautifully, and burst at the seams. Or, as Mini says, put it into some round pan (I use a six inch round cake pan sometimes) and bake it that way.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks Lazy,  I will try your suggestion of the fridge and will check Wilson's method.  Also intrigued by your suggestion of folding, picking up by the folds and plopping into pot.  FYI:  I use King Arthur unbleached AP flour and bake in a clay cloche.  The problem, of course, arose prior to baking.  Yes, inadequate gluten development; but I understood that the Forkish method of folding developed gluten.  Best wishes, Jim

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Since you're onto the next challenge, can I assume you solved your crispy crust problem? What worked for you?

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks for asking BreadBabies.  This is still a work in progress.  Several comments here and with King Arthur.  Most broadly shared and helpful advice was to remove top of cloche after 20 minutes, not thirty, and to leave finished loaf in oven with door cracked for ten minutes.  This resulted in a BETTER crust but not entirely what I want.  But, give progress its due.  What  I am really looking for is a quite thin crust brittle and crunch like on the best long crispy French bread I have eaten (can't remember the very common name right now).  Question:  Do you think baking on a stone, with appropriate water spray and/or water pan with lava rocks would be better than in a cloche?  While you are there, what is the advantage of using a linen liner with a banneton?   Thanks again!  Jim

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

There are probably others here with better experience who can advise you, but before I even finished reading your comment, I was going to ask you to if you'd be willing to try without your cloche and just on a pizza stone with a water bath.  When I've done that, my crust is much thinner. Spraying the actual top of the bread can make it look splotchly. Often, people spray the oven walls. But you don't need to do this throughout the bake. Just do it a couple of times at the beginning. I find that when I spray my oven walls, I get little flecks of charcoal on my bread. (Maybe my oven needs a good cleaning). It doesn't bother me though. No harm in giving it a try!

The linen on the banneton helps the bread not stick in the basket. This disadvantage is you don't get that nice banneton-flour pattern that some people enjoy. (Still dust the linen with some rice flour/white flour mix though.) Sometimes I don't use the linen if I"m going to retard during the final proof. I find that chilling the dough helps it release better and the linen isn't necessary. I do still really need to dust that basket and the bread very well, even then, however.

 

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks so much - again Bread Babies,

I am going to try with my stone.  Found it buried deep in the garage yesterday.   Do you know if Lava Rocks in the water bath help - worth the price?  Bought a Batard shape banneton WITH LINEN on Amazon yesterday.  Will let you know how this next step in the journey works out.  Best,  Jim

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

Personally, I've not used them so I cannot comment from experience. In general though, most of our homemade attempts at creating steam don't do much compared to the steam-injected commercial ovens. With the exception, however, of using a cloche or Dutch oven. But of course, with certain shaped breads, that can become difficult, i.e. baguettes, so that's why sometimes we are forced to employ other steam mechanisms. Lava rocks are recommended by San Francisco Baking Institute and I have to assume they retain tons of heat which makes them slightly more effective and similar to steam-injected ovens. I know that dmsnyder has lots of experience with lava rocks, so you might inquire of him.

If I were you, I would try one thing at a time.  The purpose of trying without your cloche is to try the other extreme of not steaming as much. (I wouldn't go zero steam because your oven spring would really suffer.)  So, just see what a water bath does for you. Some people use ice, some people just use hot water (watch out for your oven glass). After you've assessed the results of this less steamy method, you can dial up the steam again by trying the lava rocks until you get your desired thin crispy crust.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks much Bread Babies,

Believe I will proceed that way.  Jim

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It's purpose is to absorb more moisture from the "skin" of the shaped dough to form a tougher, less extendable skin as moisture is drawn out by the linen.  The same for the coiled rattan baskets.  The crust you are after sounds like one that doesn't rest in a banneton or too long on linen (under 30 min.)  

You might want to eventually try a more direct method of shaping with a low hydration dough and letting it rise under a moist (well wrung) tea towel.  

Add steam to the oven but only for the initial oven spring, then remove the steam pan or only give enough water in the pan that all of it is evaporated in the first 10 minutes.  Opening the oven door will release trapped steam so that still needs to be done after the initial spring to rotate the bake.  

If you decide to lower the baking temperature at the beginning of the bake,  you may find that there is less need for a steam pan or to steam at all.  Steam in the oven causes the temperature to fall temporarily and upon it's release, temps will rise again.  

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks Mini,   Getting a lot of good suggestions and am working toward perfection (improvement!).  Some suggestions seem to conflict with others.  Example:  You say here that the purpose of linen in a banneton is " to absorb more moisture from the "skin" of the shaped dough to form a tougher, less extendable skin as moisture is drawn out by the linen.  The same for the coiled rattan baskets."  Elsewhere I read that you don't want a tougher less extendable skin, and that that is the reason you spray - to help the crust be extendable.   It certainly is clear that a baneton (with or without linen) will take some moisture out of the skin.  This seems to support spraying to put moisture back on the crust in order to extend it to the point that the crust will be thin and crispy.  I guess puzzlement, experiment, and practice will clarify.  Thanks again.  Jim 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

will not extend the thickened crust much but cutting into the skin, when done correctly, that will direct the spring to open up and expand the loaf and form new thinner crust in the openings.  

BreadBabies's picture
BreadBabies

I think your goal is to have just enough steam to keep the crust from setting before you've reached your full height but not beyond that. I think experimentation is the way to go. I've mentioned this before, I think, but the closest to your description I've ever gotten is making Rose Levy Barenbaum's ciabatta bread. She is very specific in her instructions, including the amount of water to put in a pan. (She uses ice.)  It's just right so that the loaf is steamed only in the beginning.

Best of luck. Do share pics when you find your perfect loaf.

Mini, I find that my banneton without the linen does a pretty effective job of absorbing moisture. So much so that I'm having a mold problem with my bannetons. I've been drying them out in a low oven when I'm done. Totally made that up as a solution and not sure how effective it is. Don't know if you have other suggestions.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The best way is not to stack them and leave them open on racks between use but add tropical climate and or high humidity and... mould, a banneton's worst enemy.  There are TFL threads on the subject in the Archives.

So far I do alright but the rainy season has started and so will more baking.  Yes, I will often dry them with a cracked oven door using the rest of the cooling oven time to dry them after a bake.  

I might experiment mixing up a chlorine spray that can evaporate too. (watch out for those drips, they bleach clothes too)  I wonder what a vinegar spray might do (might try that first) maybe build up too much crust flavour?  Insects are also a big problem and little lizards, how to keep them away from my kitchen!

 If it becomes too much a problem, I may switch to cloth lined plastic baskets.

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks Mini,

I will keep experimenting.  

Best, Jim

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks again Mini,

Jim

Carti946's picture
Carti946

When I first started baking Forkish's recipes, I had this problem with every recipe I tried. I would turn it out of the banneton, and before I could get it into the DO, it would flatten making it difficult to get it in without folding it in on itself, which made a joke of the whole shaping, proofing and scoring process. The crumb would usually be crumbly. 

For me, there wasn't one solution. It really depended on the recipe, but all were invariably linked to insufficient gluten development (as you mentioned) and my inexperience in working with wet, slack doughs. The solutions involved altering the flour mix / water content / kneading / S&Fs. For the white bread with poolish, try dropping the hydration by 5 % (as recommended for all his recipes by many forum users), or add use 50 / 50 AP / bread (strong) flour. I don't know what flour Forkish has, but it can handle this level of hydration without a problem, but my flour can't.  

Also beware of overdeveloping the gluten,  I was using a low protein AP flour with Forkish's 80 % Biga white bread, and with every S&F, it was getting slacker and slacker. The fragile gluten present was degrading in front my eyes :(

Jim Burgin's picture
Jim Burgin

Thanks much Carti946,

Very helpful and thoughtful suggestions.  I will keep experimenting using your ideas.

Best,

Jim Burgini