The Fresh Loaf

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Retarding Rise Problems

singermane's picture
singermane

Retarding Rise Problems

I mixed my levain and let it sit out for about 8 hours at room temperature (70 or so). After two folds and an hour on the counter, I put the bread in the fridge to do the bulk ferment overnight. This morning, at 5:15, I shaped the loaf and put it back in the fridge to rise. I baked at 2PM and got a really dense crumb.

I'm guessing it overproofed. Thoughts?

 

AlanG's picture
AlanG

is my guess, though we don't have your recipe to be able to trouble shoot anymore.  After mixing my sourdough is at room temp for three hours before overnight retardation.  It is then at room temp for 90 minutes max (depending on the ambient temp) for shaping & final rise prior to baking.

singermane's picture
singermane

Here's the recipe. What do you think?

7AM - mix 1Tblpn starter with 50g each of white flour and whole wheat and 100 g warm water

6PM-mix levain with 500 grams flour and 350g water. autolyse for 30 min. add 10 g salt and 25 g more warm water. 

fold every thirty minutes

730PM-in fridge

Next day:

515 AM- shape loaf, place into baneton, back into fridge

2PM - preheat oven to 500 with dutch oven, take out loaf

230PM-bread in for 20 minutes in cast iron with lid on, 30 minutes with lid off cast iron

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Both bulk ferment and final proof in the fridge? One or the other! 

The yeast has no time to do any work. 

You can drop the starter to 10% and leave the dough out overnight to bulk ferment. Shape and final proof in the fridge for 8-12 hours. 

Or bulk ferment in the fridge for 12+ hours, with the recipe you're doing, after developing the gluten and then final proof at room temperature till ready. 

But not both in the fridge. 

Less starter for longer bulk ferment at room temp.

More starter for long bulk ferment in the fridge. 

Whichever stage you do in the fridge, do the other stage at room temperature.

P.s. silly me but i forgot to say that you can keep the amount of starter as is. Just complete the bulk ferment at room temp which should take under the 3 hours (wait till doubled) then shape and final proof in the fridge. There are so many ways.

singermane's picture
singermane

A few questions:

When you said to drop the starter percentage down to 10%, do you mean to do less levain in the overall recipe? Or less starter when I mix the levain?

I'm trying to make this recipe fit around my work schedule. Do you think I could just do one rise (mix the levain at night, mix and shape dough in the morning and put in the fridge)? I'm guessing that wouldn't really work.

So basically, I can either do one or the other in the fridge because otherwise I'm retarding TOO much...does that mean my loaf was UNDERproofed?

Thanks for all the help! This is an amazingly supportive forum.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Then 10% Levain. This should give you an overnight bulk ferment at room temperature as long as you don't live in the desert :)

Build the Levain as normal (just less of it) and use. 

I do think underproofed. 

Your larger percentage Levain at 200g to 500g flour makes it 40%. If you build the dough early evening then you'd easily be able to complete the bulk ferment, shape and final proof in the fridge overnight. Bake in the morning.

Or... re-arrange the recipe so you have 10% Levain (but still keep the final dough the same weight) and bulk ferment overnight for 8 hours, shape and final proof in the fridge to bake 8-10 hours later. 

Or... Keep all the same original ratios. Build the dough and bulk ferment in the fridge. Take out the dough, shape and final proof at room temperature for a few hours. 

Or... Yohan Ferrant's "do nothing bread" (look it up) where you have 1% starter and bulk ferment at room temperature for 24 hours then shape and final proof for one hour (warning: very high hydration, you may adjust but don't go too low as it needs the high hydration to be a no knead bread). 

 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yes, good advice from Alan and Lechem. If the dough wasn't risen and bubbly when you put it in the fridge at 7:30 PM (after the mixing and folding), then it wasn't going to do much after that. That means the yeasts in the starter don't have a chance to populate throughout the dough mass. If you do the bulk ferment in a clear, straight sided container you can look at the sides and bottom of the dough. It should have lots of bubbles in it before it goes into the fridge for retarding.

When I make sourdough I usually mix it around 4:00 PM, autolyse for 30 minutes, add salt etc., mix it well then stretch and fold two to four times (depending on the dough and how well it is developing) over the next couple of hours. I put it in the fridge around 9:00 PM, maybe later if the percentage of levain in the dough is lower or there isn't enough activity. Most of my sourdoughs are around 20% to 30% starter (that is the weight of the levain as a percentage of the total flour weight, not of the total final dough weight). I shape the dough the next morning and let it proof for a couple of hours then bake it, but I expect I could shape it then put it back in the fridge to hold until baking later in the day.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Do you shape it cold or let it warm up a bit before shaping? I need to figure out some timing for Easter weekend. 

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Hi Danni. I shape the dough cold; it's easier to handle that way. The final proof timing varies somewhat depending on the flour and other additives, but it's usually around two hours. I scale it and pre-shape, let it rest for a period of time (depending on what else I'm doing, and how long it takes for the dough to relax), then shape. It will be around 1.5 to 2 hours from that.

singermane's picture
singermane

thanks! ill try next week and let you know how it turns out

singermane's picture
singermane

Lechem, a quick clarifying question - 10% levain means 10% of the weight of the flour, right?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

If the flour is 500g then 10% levain would be 50g. Kept at room temperature you can do an all night bulk ferment (around 8 hours) no problem. Just develop the gluten before leaving it to bulk ferment. Come morning you can shape and final proof till ready or shape and refrigerate for 8-12 hours. Should be fine as long as it isn't really warm where you are.

Try this way and see if you get better results. If not, there are others. It's just a matter of finding what works for you.

singermane's picture
singermane

lechem,

i realized i misstated my original recipe. i usually do 100 g of levain to 500 g flour, not 200 g levain. do you still think i should drop from 20% to 10% (I originally misstated and said i was doing 40% levain)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

So dropping it to 10% would be a wise move anyway. 

That should be fine. 

Best of luck. 

singermane's picture
singermane

Hey, so I followed those basic guidelines. Mixed with 10% levain. Stretched and folded every 30 minutes from 6 to 9. Let sit on the counter until 5AM. Shaped. 20 min bench rest. Shaped and put in banneton and threw in fridge. As soon as I flipped it into the pan, the dough completely spread out. It got very little oven spring. Where did I go wrong?

singermane's picture
singermane

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1. What was your Levain build? Did you wait till it was mature? 

2. Did you develop the gluten properly? Try incorporating a 5-8 minutes knead before proceeding onto the stretch and folds. 

3. Did you do a pre-shape? 

singermane's picture
singermane

Also, the dough feels very spongy, as if all the water didn't cook out. Undercooked almost.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Bake it? 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1. Make sure your Levain build is fully mature

2. Skip the stretch and folds for now. 6-5am is quite a long time. I was thinking more like 8 - 9 hours. So just before bed form and knead the dough till full gluten formation. Then onto the bulk ferment. 

3. Try dropping the hydration to 65% for an all bread flour recipe. So 325g water. 

4. Pre-shape and bench rest for 20 minutes. 

5. Shape again into prepared banneton. Seam side down! So no need to score when you turn it over. 

6. Bake in preheated oven with steam. If you can use a Dutch oven, or substitute, with 20 minutes lid on and remainder lid off. 

7. Does your dough fit your banneton? 

singermane's picture
singermane

My levain is 2 part starter to 1 part flour to about.8 parts water. I let it develop for about 10-11 hours before mixing the dough.

Also, this loaf was AP flour, not bread flour.

So you think I should just mix the dough before bed, say around 9pm, mix for a bit, and then bulk ferment until morning without the stretch and folds? 

The dough was close to filling the 8.5 inch banneton, yes.

I'll try again sometime next week or later (it's Passover on Monday) and let you know. Thanks again!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Very hydrated. The flour within the starter will be low. Starter, or Levain, is prefermented flour! It's the flour % that's important. AP flour at 65% will be fine. 70% is getting high and if the gluten development is off its going to struggle. It's ok to take out something like stretch and folds and replace with kneading to see if that was part of the problem then put them back in once fixed. This way you know what you're looking for when the dough is ready. 

Put this recipe to bed for Pesach and we'll start afresh after with a different approach. I suppose you'll be building a new starter as well. So it'll be a week or two afterwards when you'll be ready again. 

In the meantime look up Hamleman's Vermont Sourdough. It's a good one to start with. 

I bet it's still tasty though. 

Enjoy Yom Tov and drop me a PM when you're ready to try again. 

singermane's picture
singermane

And, yea, I did a preshape and let it rest for 20 min before the final shape and rise in the fridge

singermane's picture
singermane

will do, thanks! so you think i should drop the amount of flour in the starter?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

The flour. 

2 parts starter + 1 part flour + 8 parts water is overly hydrated. 

Starters do vary in hydration from dough to a thick batter. But i imagine yours will be like a thin soup. 

EDIT... Oh dear I read that as 8 parts water :-O

You meant 0.8 parts water. Ha.

That's completely fine!!!

singermane's picture
singermane

have a good pesach!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Enjoy Pesach. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

For a healthy starter one needs to give it a healthy feed. That would be at least 1:1 - 1 part starter : 1 part flour (hydration at 80% like you've been doing is fine as discussed above). Feeding 2 parts starter with 1 part flour - 1:0.5 is a poor(er) feed. To build up the yeast population its better to increase the flour and leaving it to mature at room temperature. If my starter ever gets sluggish i'll treat it to an even higher feed of up to 1:5. Something else to think about for after the holidays.