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HELP! Giant caverns, dense outer crumb

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

HELP! Giant caverns, dense outer crumb

Hello! Heavy lurker of TFL since January, first time posting!

 

 

A little background: I've wanted to take a stab at sourdough bread baking for a while and finally took the plunge in January, made my own starter, and began baking. I watched numerous videos on bread baking, read articles/blogs, and kind of started winging it. My first couple loaves were failures (too much starter, too long room temp proof). Following a different process (less starter, shorter room temp bulk, overnight fridge proof) my next few loaves were AWESOME! Loaf 5 I encountered what I'm dealing with now - huge cavern inside with dense crumb all around- fed my starter rye for the first time on the first refresh, thinking that's what happened there. Loaves 6-14 were great, even got a couple ears during the bake, tender consistent crumb, good flavor, good oven spring. I thought I was killing it! I've attached a couple photos of my best bakes.

 

Now, my past three bakes have been total failures, leading me to realize that I really have no idea what I'm doing. My successes thus far have manifested through pure luck, NOT my understanding of the process. I'm currently in an experimental phase where I'm baking everyday and changing one variable in each bake to see if it makes a difference. I'm currently in bread cavern hell, where the inside is a giant cave and the outer 1/2 - 1 inch is a dense chewy crumb. Pics attached. The flavor is nice, but overall epic fails. Is this indicative of over-bulk fermenting? Under proofing? Over proofing? I'm struggling with knowing when the bulk ferment is done. My good bakes bulk fermented for a shorter period of time (3-4 hours with S&Fs every 40 mins); these recent bakes for longer (5-7 hours), so I'm wondering if this is the culprit. I finger poke test for proof doneness (after about 12-16 hours in a cold fridge overnight) and the indentions fill in slowly to about half - sounds about right? 

 

My starter is an organic all purpose, 100% hydration, and doubles in 6-8 hours after refreshment.

 

Here's my most recent failure process:

1150 g organic all purpose

50 g dark rye (I've found just a little bit adds the flavor I want, without overpowering)

900 g purified water

223 g 100% hydration starter

38 g salt

1. Autolyse flour and water for 1 hour; 2. Add starter and mix, let sit 1 hour; 3. Add salt and mix, and perform first stretch and folds; 4. Perform stretch and folds once per hour, for 6 hours (which is what I'm doing differently than before after reading about other's methods); 5. Pour, cut, and pre-shape after a 6 hour room temp bulk; 6. Bench rest for 30 mins; 7. Shape and put in bannetons; 8. Into fridge for 17 hour overnight cold proof (fridge is quite cold); 9. Bake at 450, 25 mins with lid on, 25 mins with lid off. 

 

The main difference between my successful methods and failed methods is my bulk ferment time... but I've read so many methods that allow for a 6 hour bulk time. I'm in Northern California where the ambient temp is around 65F. Does this issue even look like a fermenting time problem? 

 

Over bulk-fermenting? Over-proofing? Under-proofing? What should I be looking for to indicate bulk ferment is done? Has my starter gone wacky? ANY advice is welcome!! I REALLY want to get this right, and bake consistently good loaves! 

 

**EDIT- I might also mention that i'm not getting much of a rise during bulk or in the banneton**

THANK YOU in advance!!!

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Your starter is struggling. 

How much salt? Has this changed at all? Please confirm this isn't a typo or you've changed the amount from your successful ones to the failures. 

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thanks so much for response! I was wondering that too about my starter- its doubling/tripling in adequate time and floating when at its peak, but less frothy than when I was having good bakes. 

I've used about 3% salt in all my bakes to date, no change there. 

Thanks a ton!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

As an issue. The normal range is 1.8 - 2% of flour. 3% is definitely high and even though you have had some successes I'd still drop the salt amount. For 1200g of flour (1150g AP + 50g rye) I'd use 24g. That is one change you can do. 

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

GREAT! I started baking without a scale, and the recipe called for salt in teaspoons; when I got a scale, I converted my recipe to grams, and continued forward. Haven't had a great bake since making the transition, I hope you're right about the salt, would save me a lot of heartache! I will try during tomorrows mix, today's is already bulk fermenting, which I'm shortening to see if there's a difference.... will update with salt % change when those get baked on Thursday. Thanks again!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

The salt is really high and if it's struggling i doubt it'll correct itself because the percentages are all askew. Push on and see what happens. I'd be interested to see the results. Then in your next bake reduce the salt and alter the timing and see what happens.

If you're feeling adventurous add more flour and water to the dough you're doing now (if not too late as it might've affected the starter depending on what stage you're up to) to bring the salt down to 2%. Continue with the bulk ferment till ready etc. In other words either push on or try to save it by altering it. Up to you. 

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thank you so much! I'm already bench resting the current batch, so I'll have to push forward w current conditions there. Will adjust salt tomorrow!

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

You can always taste the dough for saltiness.  I use 2.4% salt and it is very, very salty (as dough).  By mistake I made 1.4% salt dough once.  It tasted very neutral.  It also rose way faster.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Bulk ferment starts when your starter goes into the dough. You add the starter 1 hour before the salt then bulk ferment for a further 6 hours. Once you've got the salt balance sorted out I'd drop the bulk ferment to 3-4 hours for 18% starter. Just a guide as you're supposed to watch the dough and not the clock. Once your dough is billowy and aireated the bulk ferment is done. Pre-shape and rest till the dough relaxes then shape and final proof in the fridge for 8-12 hours. This is how I'd tackle the recipe. 

Have you tried following a recipe and seeing if that works? 

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thanks, that game plan sounds good! I did start by using a recipe that was in volume measurements instead of weight... tried converting it to weight when I got a scale (thinking the recipe had produced some good loaves, so why change) and things have been off ever since. I might abandon ship on the converted recipe if things don't go well after adjusting bulk time and salt content. Thanks!

inumeridiieri's picture
inumeridiieri

Starter: when you use in the dough is ready? do you put starter in the dough  immediately after reaching its peak? 

the dough temperature should be 26°C

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thanks for the response! I've been waiting until my starter at least doubles and peaks, and try to use it at the peak. I also float test it too... not sure of the temp :/

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

Ditto on the unripe starter.  If it's not ready, don't use it.  If the bulk hasn't risen at all, leave it longer until it does.  You will never succeed if you shortcut on the readiness of the starter.

inumeridiieri's picture
inumeridiieri

Bulk fermentation must doubling volume, it's very important.

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thank you! Up until yesterday, I've mixed and bulked in the same giant stainless steel bowl, so it's been hard to tell how much it actually rises ... I just started bulking in a clear tub so I can see what's happening and haven't had much rise out of my recent (BAD) loaves, even after 7 hours of room temp bulk. Sounds like I might have to work on my starter and reduce my salt content...

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thanks a ton, really appreciate the input. I *think* I'm using my starter at the prime time, it more than doubles in 6-8 hours, and floats like a champ. I try to use before it starts to descend. Though lately it's been a little more glob-y and less frothy, even though it's rising and floating well. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

reduce the size of the starter and then give it a couple of good consecutive feedings just after peaking to build the yeast numbers back up. A few days at 26°C or just under 80°F should help a lot.  Watch the starter, but also keep track of the time it takes each time it peaks.

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Thanks MinI Oven, will do!

inumeridiieri's picture
inumeridiieri

This advice is gold. I could not explain it but it is perfect.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

It's good that you are switching to a clear tub for the bulk ferment. Sometimes it's difficult to judge the rise in a bowl, and in addition you can see the dough from the side and bottom in a clear tub. Look for lots of holes in the dough during the bulk ferment. You can also cut into the dough to check this, but that can be a pain.

Those are really epic caverns in the failed loaves! Excellent pictures for demonstration purposes. :)

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Yes, bulking in clear vessel proved to be very useful today! And I know, you can imagine how disappointing it was to cut into them!! 

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Hey everyone! Thanks again so much for your input and advice, I really really appreciate your time! This is quite an amazing forum :) The loaves I baked this morning were an improvement (pics below). Definitely not where I want to be, but the gaping caverns have turned into large holes, which leads me to think I'm at least headed in the right direction.

I reduced bulk time to 4 hours. I also think many of you were correct about my starter. I was feeding it various amounts at varying times, and it wasn't happy. Thanks to your advice, and some more intensive reading, I now have my starter on a strict and consistent feeding schedule... I think this bake was a little more successful due to my starter being slightly stronger just from the care I've given it over the past few days. Loaves were baked after a long 17 hour retard, only because I had started too early in the day and didn't want to get up earlier than my two toddlers to bake! Will retard for shorter period of time next bake.

Today's mix used less salt, and the methodology from The Perfect Loaf's beginners sourdough bread recipe (figured I'd start back at the beginning!) ... dough showed improvement today during bulk (definitely didn't double, but rose) with small bubbles throughout. Starter seems happy, but still peaking before a 12 hour feeding at a 1:5:5 ratio... curious to see how tomorrows bake goes.

THANKS AGAIN!!

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

It appears as though advice from some veteran TFLoafers has helped a lot, eh?  Great!  I will second the motion to be very disciplined with your starter maintenance routine.  Otherwise, you're introducing a biologically active unknown into every bake.  I and others maintain our starters on a wholegrain/AP mix, at an intermediate hydration, to give it versatility and less culture shock when leavening a variety of formulae (on the admittedly unfounded assumption that starters get 'acclimated' to the ration on which they're maintained).  My weekly bake has 2-3hr 78˚F autolyse > 2-3hr 78˚F bulk > 12-16 hr 42˚F fridge retard/proof until it's up to top of banneton > straight to oven.  I prefer not to warm it up from the fridge if at all possible.  Much more wholegrain than yours though.

Does your name reflect your location?  If so, I'm in 95033, just up the hill.

Tom

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Hey Tom! Thanks so much for outlining your method, sounds like a good one! I've completely ignored temperature thus far and just ordered an oven therm, an ambient temp therm, and a probe therm to step my game up. Had one of my best bakes to date this morning, posting an update below!

And YES! Small world! My husband and I just bought a property on Fern Ridge Road off of East Zayante; we'll be building this summer (husband is a general contractor) and moving up there hopefully by the end of the year. We're in Capitola now, both born and raised in SC County, and have two young kids. Really looking forward to getting up to the mountains!  

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Fern Ridge - that's deep in it.  Fun!  And that's due west of us -- we're just over by 17 from your new spot. 

Put a "Brod & Taylor Proofer" on your Christmas list.  It is a nicely engineered, stow-able box that pays for itself in making your bulk and starter incubations much more predictable.  Funny - since we moved to 95033 from back east, we now have a hot water heater in a closet accessible from outside the house.  I used to grow up my starter under a stocking cap, on top of our hot water heater which was inside the house, where they all have to be back in the chilly midwest.  But out here, that spot is way too unpredictable, temperature-wise.  So a store-bought proofer is a life(=sanity)saver.  But if hubby is a builder, maybe he can fashion you one from scraps.  Lots of plans for them on TFL.

Happy baking...and building!

Tom

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Let's see what happens when you make further improvements to the recipe.

Looks very good indeed.

zayantebread's picture
zayantebread

Hello again! Bake #2 happened this morning since the bad loaves and I think its an improvement from yesterday's bake! No giant caverns, and my first legit crusty crust. I might have teared up a bit when these came out of the oven ;) 

These are following the methodology and recipe of The Perfect Loaf beginners sourdough - slightly lower hydration than what I was working with previously (1-3% less), and less salt. Shorter bulk ferment. I also mixed my leaven in the morning and used it about 5 hours later, as opposed to using straight from a 12 hour starter. 

I think between decreasing salt, decreasing bulk, and increasing starter strength, I'm now hopefully on the right track! 

I also did an experiment (figured why not) and mixed up a 25% rye starter a couple days ago to see how it compared to my APF starter (since its often recommended to use a blend of whole grain/white flours to feed a starter). They rye reached its peak sooner, but the APF got just as high, just took longer. When I mixed, I did 100% APF with the rye starter, and 5% rye flour with the APF starter (to see how different the flavor profiles were). During bulk ferment, the rye had larger/more bubbles earlier on, but less bubbles throughout at the end of bulk. After baking, I'm liking the crumb and the flavor of the APF starter with 5% rye mix better than the 25% rye starter APF mix. I have a soft spot for purely white bread, which is the reason I'd like to keep my starter white, if possible. I think this experiment solidified that decision for me (at least for now!)  

My starter has now been on a strict feeding schedule for about 3 days and is MUCH happier. 

Thanks again for all of your help! I'm sure I'll be back here soon...

 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

They look perfect! Bet they're delicious. It's amazing to compare the different loaves. It's a great feeling when they turn out like this. Enjoy!