The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Commercial Oven troubles

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

Commercial Oven troubles

Howdy to all the Sourdough aficionados. 

I have recently upped my game and I am renting space in a commissary kitchen. 

Their oven, as giagantic as it is, is presenting  a unique challenge for me to bake in. 

The oven is 8 feed wide with 6 racks that rotate around a natural gas flame At the bottom. 

The loaves consistently split at the bottoms.  Normally I would say just proof the bread longer, but this fails to cure my problem. 

My current set up is quarry tiles on an upper rack where I put the bread, and on the rack directly below I put 5 cast iron pans that I put about a 1/4 cup of water in each to create steam in each for the bread. 

Ive also tried covering the bread with a large dome to trap as much steam as possible But they still crack on the bottom portion. 

 

 

 

fupjack's picture
fupjack

Is it from heat, or from the bread spreading out, or similar?  I've seen something like that with bread where the cut didn't make it far enough to the ends of the bread, so there was lots of expansion in the middle, but it would break near the ends as it tried to rise and the "caps" of the uncut area kept it in.

If you can get a picture of it, that will make it easier to diagnose.

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

I can't figure out how to upload a photo.  I'll work figuring it out. 

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

I have made my decision and I could be wrong.  But I think there is insufficient steam.  I think for a diagnosis you should bake a couple loaves in closed dutch ovens and see that they should come out right.  I am not aware of an efficient way to steam such an oven, as the cavern is so large.

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

It seems there is a concensis. More steam. 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

The inside of the oven is the size of a small room and it is vented to allow the gasses from combustion to exhaust so I doubt you will ever be able to put enough steam in it without effecting how the gas burns.  You can work on changing the recipe to work with the oven you have or get a deck oven.  

Just my 2¢

Gerhard

fupjack's picture
fupjack

I think MichaelLily is right - the decks in that oven are probably the hottest thing, so you are getting the breakout on the bottom because it crusts up first.  I've baked with a similar oven, and it would dry out crusts very quickly - though that may have been the quality of the oven more than anything else.  

Steaming more will help, but that can be very hard to do.  You're already putting steam in, and it's hard to add more without taking away from the thermal mass of the oven.

You have the wonderful problem of lots of rise, and the breakout happens because it's still rising after crust has formed.  So, if you slash differently, you'll give it more room to expand.  I'd try slashing end-to-end of the loaf, at least for these.  That will relieve the pressure.  

You could also put the bread in on pans - that will slow the penetration of heat into the bottom of the loaves, so they won't crust up as fast.  That may have a side benefit of making it easier to load, if you've got the pans and a rack to put them in.  I think a different cut is the shortest path to a fix, though.

Out of curiosity, what are you working towards?  Are you looking to scale up your output to move to a commercial kitchen?  I ask because I'm looking at doing the same thing (renting commissary time) later this year.  

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

 Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out. I've tried the vertical/and in the past the bread spreads out is that arises that so I tried to make these more horizontal cards then vertical cuts. I definitely like your idea of bread pans or tIns. I really think that that would work but I would lose that "artisan" look. But I'm thinking very seriously  switchlung if for nothing else to get my bread consistent again. 

 

 Right now I have a very modest goals. I would like to be baking in between 100 and 120 loaves per week. I am currently doing about 60 loaves a week. The future plans include  a week retail delivery route, two grocery stores, two CSAs and a farmers market. 

 

 Right now I am between a rock and a hard place with the commissary kitchen because the rent is so high and it is eating into my profits. I've negotiated a flat rate but it's still tough. I need to be operating out of a Health inspected kitchen so it's a requirement. And I hope to be in my own space with a nice deck oven by the end of the year. I'm really trying hard to build my customer base. 

fupjack's picture
fupjack

If you're doing a vertical cut, maybe if you don't run it all the way to the end of the loaf, there will be enough structure from the uncut ends to keep the loaf together?  That, or maybe cut deeper on the horizontal slashing, to get pressure relief.    

We cut some 700g batards completely end-to-end now at the place I'm working, and I thought they wouldn't stay up - but they are shaped with a roll to a point on each end.  I think that tighter roll makes a difference in holding the loaf together.  That may be another alternative, though it's a significant change to the loaf.

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

Thanks. I'll give it a try next baking session. 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

I've used them in commercial kitchens. The exposed gas burner flames drive rapid air circulation which is great for restaurant food but terrible for baking hand-shaped loaves. That's because you need a still, steady heat which allows the bread to rise. Instead it's like trying to bake in a wind: the crust sets too soon, you don't get good oven spring. and the loaves tear in exactly the fashion you've described. It's made worse because, being gas-fired, they have to be vented, so steam is an issue.

There are two solutions.

The first is to use bread tins/pans, which is why, I imagine, they were invented in the first place. Their sides protect your loaves, leaving only one place they can rise: the top. 

The second is riskier, but I have pulled it off in the past. You need huge thermal mass and an oven door with good seals (pretty rare in a working kitchen). I used marble slabs and/or thick steel sheets (at least 6mm/¼") and placed them, as you've done, on the rack the bread  rests upon, but also on the one above.  In the bottom of the oven I layered ceramic roofing tiles, three thick and then heated the oven until a thermometer probe TOUCHING the slab on the the lower rack read at least twenty degrees above my target temperature. This can take a very long time but if you're in for a whole shift of baking, it's worth it. I loaded up the oven, chucked a jug of water over the tiles, closed the door tight then, and this is the most important part, switched the oven off. With no naked flame driving an internal hurricane, plus contact with very hot slabs, and lots of steam, you get great oven spring and good grigne. The thermal mass maintains your oven temp and with no air circulation, less steam is lost. In your photos, your loaves look to be medium-small in size (somewhere between 500-600g) so, if it were me, I'd leave the oven off for about 7-8 minutes, then re-ignite, releasing the what's left of the steam in another 7-8 min. Every oven is different, so I'd expect to have to adapt this method according to the circumstances by doing several test bakes until I was confident in the process.

If you think about it, this method is quite similar to how you bake in a wood-fired oven. I've even had to do this with big miches (2kg) but that was nerve-wracking. Who wants to leave their bread in a switched-off oven for 18-20 minutes? But it worked, the oven-spring was immense. 

However, first choice would be to find a non-gas-fired oven.

fupjack's picture
fupjack

I have an old Wolf gas oven at home - the flames are not exposed, since there's a heavy metal sheet enclosing the flame cover, but still...  I like this idea of severely increasing thermal mass.  I already have some tiles for the oven; I'll pick up some more and try them out.  I can probably put them directly on the floor of the oven, and on the higher shelf, and then bake directly on the bottom tiles.

It will be nervewracking to turn it off like you said, but it does all make sense.

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

I can definetly can try turning the oven off during the first couple minutes. It's kind of like trying to bake in a convection oven. You got to turn off the air circulation for it to rise right.  I like this idea. You've got a good eye. The loaves are 600 grams. 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

...After that, it's trial and error until you find the right timings for the oven. If you're running out of time to experiment, borrow some bread pans until you can work out a better solution. That way you at least get some good loaves.

Good luck. :)

 

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

I actually ran out and bought 20 bread pans yesterday to get me up and running. The bread turned out nicely. The best price is I got the pans for $0.89 each. Thanks for the good luck wishes. I need it!

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

 

RoundhayBaker's picture
RoundhayBaker

Sounds like you got amazingly good value for the pans. Well done.

fupjack's picture
fupjack

I like how the top turned out, and $0.89 pans is a steal.  So this may be a happy ending to this story?

Mr Meowski's picture
Mr Meowski

Yeah the pans are a bargain for sure. The only down side is that customer wasn't happy that the loaves did not look like my free form loaves. 

fupjack's picture
fupjack

Might get the insulation effect if you can try it on a sheet pan, so you can still have the hand-formed shape.