The Fresh Loaf

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Firm bottom - saggy top

jko's picture
jko

Firm bottom - saggy top

Apologies for the corny title, but it describes the problem I'm having with my Panasonic SD2501 breadmaker.

I'm new to the world of breadmaking, and received the breadmaker as a Christmas gift. I love it and I am generally very happy with what it produces. However, now that I've had a few loaves through it, I'm getting a bit more picky about the results.

White loaves, of any size seem to turn out just about spot-on using the recipe in the instructions.

Wholemeal loaves are a different matter. Following the recipe produces a loaf which, whilst generally acceptable, tend to be like the title - quite firm (but not unacceptably so) towards the bottom of  the loaf, just about perfect in the middle, and a bit too soft at the top. The bread towards the top of the loaf doesn't seem to hold together terribly well, although it tastes fine - just a bit too soft or inconsistent to cut well. The top crust sags somewhat after it cools, but the other crust is fine. I also think it is more noticeable once the loaf is a day or two old, with the top of the loaf becoming even more 'crumbly'.

I've tried various proportions for wholemeal/white. I've also tried granary, and granary/wholemeal mix. Very similar results. I've even tried increasing the water content a little, as suggested elsewhere. Again, little improvement.

I'm beginning to wonder if the issue is that I use the timer. I set it up the night before and set the delay timer to have it ready in the morning. Max time is maybe 8 hours overall, with the 5 hour cycle as part of that.

I'm going to try it without the delay timer, but I am also open to any other suggestions.

Thanks,

John

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Sagging sounds like over proofing to me. Do you follow a recipe from the book exactly or your own recipe?

If you make changes, what are they?

jko's picture
jko

I haven't really experimented much yet, so I follow the quantities in the recipe. My only variation is the proportions of wholemeal/granary/white flour, but the overall quantity is the same. That said, even using the exact proportions specified has much the same result.

Can you explain to me a little of what you mean by over-proofing?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Means it's risen too much so it begins to sag when baked. I don't think it'd cause a soggy top but we're not hand baking here and at the mercy of the machine. 

Pictures do help a lot. I'd say reduce the yeast a fraction and see what happens. If you aren't measuring the yeast properly then instead of reducing try and get it more accurate. 

Altering the flour won't help as different flour ferments at a different pace. If we solve the saggy and soggy top then fine. If just the saggy then you can always pop it in the oven for a few minutes. 

Which recipe are you following? How much yeast to flour and what is the timing? 

 P.s. what yeast does the recipe ask for and which yeast are you using?

jko's picture
jko

The recipe is straight from the Panasonic's manual:

3/4tsp yeast
400g strong wholemeal (and this is what I vary in proportion, but always 400g)
1tsp sugar
15g butter
1tsp salt
300ml water (although I have tried adding about 10ml more. A granary loaf uses 280ml, so for a mix, I split the difference)

Sorry, don't know the precise timings, but it's the 5hr 'menu' on the machine (#4). I add up to 3hrs to that to get the delayed bake ready for first thing in the morning.

Thanks for your suggestions (and your time to reply). I'll tweak the yeast quantity and see if that helps. I have tried both the supplied measuring spoon (marked in 1/4tsp), and also using a 1/2tsp and 1/4tsp measures.

jko's picture
jko

I'm using Easy Bake yeast (Allinson brand). The Panasonic manual recommends Easy Bake or Fast Action yeasts.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

That the flour mix you're using has yeast in it?

First thing to do is check that. 

If not then the next step is to follow the recipe exactly and report back with photos before you go altering anything. 

jko's picture
jko

Thanks again for your help - much appreciated.

I'll do one as precisely as possible and avoid the delay timer, and see how that works out.

Ingrid G's picture
Ingrid G

Had a look around and found a YouTube video on how to use this model.

I was surprised that in the video the instant yeast was added last (on top of the ingredients).

The recipes in the manual always state to start with the yeast first, flour and other dry ingredients and then all wet ingredients.

Did you put the yeast first? I had never any problems with soft tops etc. Every time a perfect loaf. It might also help to let the loaf completely cool before covering with a cloth, or whatever you do with it.

jko's picture
jko

Definitely yeast first.

Everything else on top as per the recipe/instruction book.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

But I distinctly remember that the water went in first. Then I sprinkled the flour over the water. Made two indentations in the flour on either side keeping them apart. In one went the salt and in the other the yeast. Both were then covered with flour so they don't touch till the mixing starts. 

What make of flour have you been using up till now? 

jko's picture
jko

Interesting, regarding order.

Panasonic book definitely has dry first, water last.

Just for clarity - all the flours I've used are the "strong" variety, specifically for bread-making. The latest lot is supermarket brand (Tesco, also had Co-op). The granary is Hovis (I think it's proprietary to them). Fairly sure I've used Allinson as well. All new, used almost immediately. Next batch may be a branded flour, I think.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And you are correct. Why I dreamed up of doing it that way is anyone's idea. Oh well. 

So just to be sure that you've used plain flour and nothing with added yeast in it. Flour mixes can have yeast in it already and if you add yeast to that then it'll be too much. 

Don't use malted except in the right proportions for the correct recipe. Don't replace all or part of a recipe and substitute malt flour. Has to be used in the correct proportions. 

jko's picture
jko

Definitely no added yeast.

Thanks for the tip regarding malted. That has been a bit of an experiment - not wholly unsuccessful, but not perfect, hence my original post.

I'll try and find a recipe for a malted 'mix' and try that.

jko's picture
jko

Latest bake.

Bit of a disaster, I think.

Couldn't figure out how to add photos here, so here's a link to them:

https://goo.gl/photos/fAopqfUo7d3XYdj79

This was baked following the exact recipe in the Panasonic manual. Everything weighed and measured as accurately as I could. It was set to make immediately - no delay timer. At a guess, I'd say the loaf was about 2/3 the height I'd expect. The top was already soft and sagging. The rest of the crust felt firm and crispy. Some parts even looked a little burnt. I haven't cut it yet - still hot, but I suspect it will be quite dense near the bottom, and poorly formed near the top.

Having had this before, I typically add 10-15ml of extra water and that seemed to help, but it still resulted in the originally reported symptoms. This loaf seems to be an extreme example of what I'm seeing.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

A crispy top you associate with artisanal bread can only be reproduced in an oven. Even then it's tricky with people resorting to novelty ideas on how to go about it best. 

A crumb shot will tell us more. 

jko's picture
jko

Crumb shot added.

Spit dead centre.

To me that looks inconsistent, and I suspect when I cut it in a day or two the upper half will have a tendency to fall apart (based on recent experience).

jko's picture
jko

Or even *split* dead centre.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I did get better results then that with the same machine. 

Here is a very minor change but I always used oil instead of butter. Look at the manual for the conversion and try a loaf with oil. 

Also check your yeast. Dissolve a little yeast in some warm sugar water. See if it froths. 

A minor change but small steps. You don't want to change too much at once.

jko's picture
jko

Happy to experiment with that.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Throwing out ideas here. 

If your butter is salted and you add salt that could throw it off. 

jko's picture
jko

I'll be mindful of that.

In this case it was actually margarine that I used. I need to avoid lactose, so tend not to use butter (or use the lactose-free stuff, if I do).

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

1. Check health of the yeast.

2. Use oil but follow the conversion instructions in the manual on the ingredients page. 

See how that goes.

jko's picture
jko

Sounds like a plan!

I appreciate all your advice and look forward to plenty of tasty bread-making.

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I have had several different bread machines over the years. They were useful when I was working too much to have time to make home made bread. One thing I'd like to note is that the order of the ingredients varies depending on the manufacturer, so if you are adding ingredients in the order noted in the instruction manual, you're doing it right, regardless of what another set of instructions for a different machine might say!

I found that, with some whole grain flours, the dough was not kneading sufficiently to develop the gluten. Is there a little window in the top of your machine? If so, watch the dough through several minutes of the kneading cycle (in fact, you can open the lid and watch as this shouldn't cause any problems with the dough). Watch and see if it forms a smooth, elastic ball, or if it looks stiff and lumpy, even near the end of the kneading cycle. If it looks too dry and 'hard' you might be able to add a bit more water, a tablespoon at a time, to see if this helps. If you can pause the cycle you can even take the dough out (remove the paddle from the dough if necessary) and knead it by hand for a few minutes until it is strong, stretchy and silky. Then put the paddle and the dough back in the machine and resume the cycle.

Ciarli's picture
Ciarli

you cant wait artisan bread from a bread maker machine! It is just simple bread, bread to eat or bread to the poor!