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Shaping sourdough batards

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Shaping sourdough batards

I generally only make sourdough loaves at home, and I've never had problems with boules; they're very easy to shape and get tight.  I've switched to batards, because my partner finds it easier for toast.

Oh the pain.

I can't produce anything particularly well formed, as folding the dough back on itself leads to it sticking to my hands as much as itself.  I'm not even talking a particularly wet dough, just 71% 50% wholewheat.  Online demonstrations all seem to involve 65% yeasted pillows of delight, rather than a regular sourdough.

If anyone has any advice, it would be appreciated.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

To shape a batard it helps to pre-shape into a boule first. Once the pre-shaped boule has rested till the dough has relaxed then shape into a batard by flipping it over so it's smooth side down. Then you can either fold into the middle, then fold the other half into the middle overlapping a tad and them folding in half, sealing the seam with the palm of your hand. After which you can roll it a bit into the shape you're after.

Or you can (now this is more difficult to explain)... imagine a horizontal line across the middle then take two of the top "sides" and fold so one half is now a triangle. Then take the top of the triangle and fold into the middle. Then turn the dough around and repeat (overlapping a tad when folding the triangle down). Then fold in half sealing the seam with the palm of your hand etc.

Hope I've described it ok.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Hi Lechem,

Ah, thank you; I'll give those two techniques a try, and see how I get on.  Cheers!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You might need to flatten it out a tad to be able to work it and fashion it into a batard.

I find batards easier as when you fold a boule it naturally doesn't fold into a round shape. But a batard, as you fold it, supports the final shape. The pre-shape, although a boule, hasn't got to be perfect so I'm ok with that. It's just when doing a boule as a final shape I find awkward.

Best of luck.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Ah I see what you mean.  I normally complete a boule by running my fingers along the base towards me from the far side, which tightens the lot into a neat bun.

I guess it's only easier as I've always made boules. :)

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Do the same thing when you tighten the batard, only instead of pulling the round towards you as you do with a boule, put the batard pointing away from you and place the pinky side of each hand on each side of the dough. Then scoot it from side to side on the counter / bench, tightening the skin and lengthening the shape a bit. Make sense?

drogon's picture
drogon

My regular sourdoughs - of which I bake approximately 150 a week are 63-65% hydration. To me, sourdough is an ingredient and a fermentation process not a bread with big bubbles in it... If I want bread with big bubbles in it, I'll make ciabatta with regular yeast...

My 50% wholemeal loaves are about 73% hydration though which isn't too tricky to handle although these go into tins. I need to start making videos...

Try to describe shaping - pre-shape into a boulle. Rest (for as long as it takes me to scale and pre-shape the rest of the dough in that batch). Pick up with bench scraper and flip over - this already makes it a bit oval. Pat down/lift/pat to gently degas it  and stretch it into a long oval. Lift and fold top down 2/3 of the way. Lift left & right sticky outy bits and gently stretch then fold over each other, then start to roll it from the top to the bottom and when done, tighten it up with thumbs pushing away, transfer to couche or banneton, seam side up (or down for a tin)

This: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/374369#comment-374369 has a couple of photos of the first 2 steps. A video will be better - must make time to make one!

-Gordon

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Here is the method that I use most of the time.  Martin Philip of King Arthur at work...  It works just dandy for me.

https://youtu.be/PmxDKuGLWuE?t=387

The method of using a drywall blade as linked to above, is a valuable alternative for very high hydration doughs, but is totally unnecessary for the average run-of-the-mill hydrations - meaning anywhere from the upper 60 %s to the upper 70 %s.

ph_kosel's picture
ph_kosel

I am used to rubbing sprinkled flour gently over the top of the dough before turning it out of the bowl.  It makes turning it out onto the counter easier and the scraper is less likely to stick to the dough.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Thanks a lot guys, that's loads of techniques to try; the last video's dough looks a lot like my dough when shaping.  I notice that none of the bakers are getting worked up about making sure everything is perfectly sealed, or that no air is trapped when folding - which might also be where I'm going wrong.

I'll give it another go this weekend.

ph_kosel's picture
ph_kosel

I use a bench scraper and gentle rolling/stretching to make batards and baguettes out of round boules.  Dough sticking to your hands suggests there's not enough dry flour on the dough, so be more generous with the flour.  It's far easier to work with well inflated, well floured dough when shaping.

Skill comes with experience so keep at it and don't give up.  I've watched a lot of youtube videos.  Some are perhaps too stick-in-the-mud strict in suggesting there is only one correct way, but you can tell when someone has skill and learn from them.

ph_kosel's picture
ph_kosel

Sometimes when I use too much fry flour in shaping I wind up with dry flour inside the loaf.  Too little flour though and the dough is sticky.  The trick is to use just enough to keep the dough from sticking without getting unpalatable masses of white flour inside the loaf.

ph_kosel's picture
ph_kosel

My bad, should have proof read a preview before posting.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Email Floyd  (you can find his address in the small print below) and ask him to enable your editing options and private messages. 

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Much easier with the triangle fold and then pulling it towards me along the bottom, cheers!  Just need to work on getting some ears now.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Looks great to me. Scoring looks good and it's held its shape perfectly. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

For a starter kit, reference these two comments, both from a recent thread:

A few thoughts and scoring batards

And just for fun there are a million of these on YouTube, but only a handful of reliable known sources, and here is a compilation of some.  Brought to you by TFL's own David Snyder.  These mostly refer to baguettes, but the concept is pretty much the same.

alan 

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Alas, cutting of the loaf revealed a most spectacular failure.  I have no idea how I've managed that; is it possible I've trapped air in with the shaping, despite best efforts?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

When making the pre shape boule I don't use any flour. Just wet my hands, do some pinch and folds within the bowl, turn it out onto a dry bench and gently tighten into a round. When shaping i will sprinkle some flour on the outside before flipping over. This way no flour gets on the inside and minimal flour is used, just enough so the outside doesn't stick. Gently press out the big bubbles and when folding try not to introduce air pockets.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Hi Lechem,

I had another bash, using barely any flour, and found similar holes in the resulting batard; I'm guessing that it's either poor development in my kneading, or poor shaping (or a mix of both).  I'll knead the pants out of the next batch, and see if it improves.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And what is your recipe with method? 

Grenage's picture
Grenage

The starter is very vigorous and predictable, and the recipe I'm using is:

150g (100%) strong white starter
50g rye
200g strong wholemeal
200g strong white.
10.5g salt

I autolyse the flour and water for one hour, before kneading in the starter and salt; I knead by hand until it feels done, which is normally 15-20 minutes.  I will then ferment for about 6 hours at 18C - I used to ferment until doubled, but the resulting dough was a little more relaxed than I liked.

I then pre-shape and shape, before placing into bannetons; when the loaf has grown a bit under 50% I throw them in the fridge to bake the next day at 230C for 40 minutes.

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Thanks, Lechem.

I increased the bulk ferment and decreased the final proof - much better!

 

 

 

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

Well done!!

PatMax's picture
PatMax

cheers to you

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

ears as well! great when it comes together isn't it!

happy baking 

Leslie

 

Grenage's picture
Grenage

Thanks, guys. :)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

very nice indeed! Scoring opening up very well. One needs good shaping for that to happen. And no gaping holes.