The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Eric's Fav Rye

Susan's picture
Susan

Eric's Fav Rye

Eric's Fav RyeEric's Fav Rye

My first try

at Eric's favorite deli rye.

Eric's Rye CrumbEric's Rye Crumb

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Great job with the deli rye. It couldn't be more beautiful. Is this the sour rye from Greenstein? Any hints you have to pass on. weavershouse

Susan's picture
Susan

Tastes good too.

Eric, it's your recipe, wanna spill the beans?

Susan from San Diego

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Susan has really done this recipe justice, and on the first try. It kills me that she can do this formula with better results than I have ever gotten. I guess that's the mark of a good baker, to be able to make minor adjustments that affect the outcome. Very nice Susan, a beautiful loaf!


The recipe is a result of my research in Rye mixes a while back. I wanted to find a NY style Jewish Rye that didn't take 3 days to make that had personality. I've looked at and baked Levy, Greenstein, Mike Avery's Bohemian and a fellow named chef John V from Good cooking. I took all of this and simplified the process into something I could do in a long day and get reliable results every time. My family and I like deli style rye with caraway seeds and since we have many friends who are so inclined, I need to have a good loaf that works as house gifts and sandwich bread during the Jewish holidays and also for St Patrick's day corned beef. My German butcher friend has the best corned beef ever and serves 3000# plus every year at Irish fest in Milwaukee in sandwiches. We have been playing with using my rye bread formula if I can find a way to do the volume. In the end I don't say this is the best rye bread you can make. If you like the sour rye that takes 3 days to build, this isn't going to satisfy you. If you want a great tasting rye that will make a great CB sandwich and you can do the process in a long day or overnight, give this a try.


RYE-ERIC’S 


This is my formula for rye bread in the NY Deli style. The crust is soft after it cools and will slice better the next day. If you need bread that will stand a few days, this mix is good for mailing across the country. Sealed in a plastic bag after cooling, this rye will be great 4-5 days later and freezes very well.


 Sponge:


100g Active Rye starter


275g Rye (Whole or White Rye)


275g water


Mix and set at room temp overnight. (If this stage will longer than 8 hours I suggest refrigerating after 3 hours and warming to room temp before proceeding)


 Final Dough:


All the sponge


484g water SEE NOTE BELOW


788g First Clear flour


1 Tablespoon sugar


1 teaspoon instant yeast


22g Sea Salt


20g Caraway seeds


 


Mix, rest for 20-30 minutes, knead by machine or by hand for 8-10 minutes or stretch and fold several times. It is important to have well developed gluten. Do enough stretches to feel the gluten chains forming. Otherwise you may have trouble getting a good rise.   Place dough in a lightly oiled bowl, cover and ferment till double, about 1 hour or so at warm (80 F) temp. Be sure you get double.


Divide and shape into 2-2lb loaves, final proof for 45 minutes.


Bake @370 for 30-40 Minutes. (I steam for the first 10 minutes)I’m looking for 190+ F internal temperature.  When the bread comes out of the oven I brush with a glaze made from whisking 1T cornstarch into 1 Cup of boiling water and sprinkle with kosher salt lightly.


 


NOTE:I have been re hydrating dry onions in all of the water for the dough, and using that water in the mix. If you want Onion Rye, use the onions also in the dough mix. It is wonderful!


 


Measure the water in a microwave proof bowl and boil it. Add 1/4 Cup dry onions, mix around and let cool. Make the dough with this water.






  


Enjoy--


 

leemid's picture
leemid

What hydration level is your rye starter, please?

Lee

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Lee, my rye starter is usually around 80 percent hydration. A better question is what was Susans?? The key is for it to be active and pumped up.

Susan's picture
Susan

Lee, my starter is 100% hydrated bread flour starter. Although, considering the yeast kicker, I don't know how much that matters. Hard to tell.

Susan from San Diego

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

Susan, I am a newbie here. How do you make the rye starter?
Thanks, Mitchell

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

So can we have the formula for the starter?
Thanks

saraugie's picture
saraugie

Sorry cold oven start is your technique as I say easily confused.

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Susan,

I tried to give you 5 stars but they kept dancing around. I know someone else what having this problem but I didn't pay much attention because I didn't have any trouble clicking stars before. You deserve 5 stars for that   rye.                                                   weavershouse

Floydm's picture
Floydm

It is a javascript in Internet Explorer issue that I haven't figured out how to fix yet. In Firefox or Safari, it works fine.

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

When I went back after posting my message it worked fine. Oh well.                 weavershouse

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

for Susan..I am the one who has the problem! now I know I'm not alone, I think there are 3 of us now  :  )  I LOVE RYE!! Any pics of the crumb..the flavor has to be wonderful...

browndog's picture
browndog

I was stuck in IE a few days ago and sure enough the stars were like beachballs.

But not this time. Beautiful classic-looking rye, Susan. Just wants swiss cheese and mustard to finish it off.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Beautiful loaf, Susan-the-poet! I haven't even been tempted to try rye, but after seeing your first attempt I might have to join the crowd. Well done, A.

buns of steel's picture
buns of steel

wow, a gorgeous loaf!

 

yeah, yeah, the beans, the beans! 

 

I will start corning the beef now, soaking the mustard seeds, and check back for the recipe.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Gorgeous loaf of rye bread, Susan! 

David

susanfnp's picture
susanfnp

That loaf could not be more gorgeous!

Susanfnp

http://www.wildyeastblog.com

lisah's picture
lisah

Hi Eric,

I'm so impressed with your formula for this rye bread.  Would you tell me please about your oven and equipment?  Did you use a stone?  How do you steam your oven?  Thanks

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Lisa, the rye is steamed 2 at a time on a heavy sheet pan lined with parchment. I steam the oven for 10 minutes and bake at 370 F for 30-40 minutes. I usually brush the crust with prepared corn starch hot out of the oven and sprinkle with Kosher salt.

The image at the top of this thread is from Susan from San Diego. The girl has the midas touch if you ask me. That's her first try and it's better looking than any of my attempts. That's the fun part of this hobby or passion. The outcome of the bread can be drastically changed by a few subtle changes in handling.

I hope you try this bread. Let us know how you like it if you do.

Eric

jkandell's picture
jkandell

I made your recipe and it indeed makes an excellent jewish rye, as good as any recipe I've tried. I modified things a bit by using organic all purpose flour (slightly more then specified--you'll notice from the photo above the original formla is a way flat). I let the rye starter sour over 24h at room temperature, using 30g of storage starter to innoculate. I also proofed and fermented at room temperature, which took a couple hours then 45 minutes. Baked at 450 for 12 minutes, then down to 400 for another 20 or 30 till internal temp was 190.  Delicious loaf, dude!

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Thanks for the comments, it is a reliable formula it seems that a lot of people have liked. I like your fermenting schedule and I suspect the results are a fuller flavor. You certainly got a nice oven spring!
Glad you liked it.

Interestingly, the German gentleman who has been my friend for many years smokes meat in a small commercial operation near here was the inspiration to put this together. The public store front is only open 3 days a week, otherwise he is busy smoking delicious meats for the Navy to ship all over the world. He and his wife have been telling all about the breads from the old country for years. So every now and then I gift a couple loaves of this to them. They seem to like it.

Eric

cordel's picture
cordel

Hmm, now I want a recipe for Montreal Smoked Meat. My husband made some, but while it is delicious, it is not Montreal Smoked Meat.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Montreal Smoked Meat is awesome. My parents took me to Ben's 20 years ago and I still remember the taste.

I see that Ben's closed in 2006. Sadness.

cordel's picture
cordel

Sad, but there are still several places. We go to Chenoy's in Beaconsfield, now, and there is another one just as good, but I can't remember the name. If anyone here lives in Toronto, you need to go north to HY7 and Centre Street. Centre Street Deli makes smoked meat to die for. If you go at lunch time you will have to wait in line for a few minutes, but they are up to Ben's or Dunn's standards.

jkandell's picture
jkandell

I attribute the oven spring to the slightly lower hydration I use compared to your recipe, to the 450F initial oven temperature on a pizza stone, and to the short proof.  (Does clear flour absorb the same water as all-purpose?)

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I'm not sure about the water absorption rate of clear vs AP flour. The first clear gives the dough a developed feel which I am comfortable with kneading/stretching as the gluten in the clear lines up. I haven't had any trouble with the dough pancaking during proofing which is how I know if I got the hydration correct. In general I like to use the highest hydration I can get away with and still bake free form.

 That's a very nice hand blown vase btw. The color is extraordinary!

Eric

Eli's picture
Eli

That is an amazing loaf!!! Makes me hungry~!

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

How do you make the starter?
Thanks

olivert's picture
olivert

Sorry, I'm a newby...How do I get the recipe for this loaf???

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

In this case, the recipe is near the top of the thread.  Just scroll up and you will find it.


Paul

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Mitchell,


If you have a sourdough starter, just feed it with rye for a couple feedings. If not, make a batch of whole rye and water at 100% hydration and add 1/4 tsp of yeast and 2 T of vinegar. Let that sit at room temperature for 24 hours. That's a close approximation that will get you in the ball park.


Eric

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

Thanks Eric. I will give it a try. I am a newbie in doing this.


You folks on this blog are wonderful.


Mitchell

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

What does 100% hydration mean?
Thanks, Mitchell

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

Hydration refers to the amount of water relative to flour.  The flour in your recipe is always constant (100%), and the other ingredients are measured in relation to the flour.  So, 100% hydration means that there is the same amount of water as flour (by weight). 

Shlomo Dovid's picture
Shlomo Dovid

I look at the estimate for a long day or overnight and I can't help but think that this quick of a turnaround is only measured after the starter/sponge is ready. At least that was the case when I made the recipe for Deli Rye from the Secrets of a Jewish Baker.

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

So how do I convert grams to US measures? Every chart gives me different answers.


Thanks again, Mitchell

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

I just realized that you probably weigh the ingredients. That' a new technique for me but I will try it.


Mitchell

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

Mitchell, you will find that a lot of recipes call for weighing the ingredients.  I would recommend trying it; you'll find your results are much more consistent from batch to batch.


That said, for purposes of refreshing your starter, you can get a close approximation measuring by volume.  One cup of water (8 oz) is roughly equivalent to 1 3/4 cups of flour and will result in a 100% hydration starter.

oleteeth's picture
oleteeth

Eric, You are a life saver (or should I say a recipe saver)
Thanks again. I will let you know how it turns out.


Mitchell

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I just made this with bread flour and 1Tbsp vital wheat gluten and I must say its one of the best rye loafs I've had. I made the starter with hard rye, which is all I could get at our bulk barn...and we have no clear flour here. In my humble opinion it was comparable in taste to our jewish "open window bakery" rye, but not as pretty.


I'm new and just learning, but I will definately be doing this one again.


Thanks!

rcrabtree's picture
rcrabtree

I just made this as well.  I have no idea how it tastes on its own merits; after it cooled I immediately made reubens (first time).  mmmmmmmmmmmmm

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I've been struggling with this recipe and it never seems to turn that lovely golden colour you've achieved. Maybe its my gas oven? I will try dividing into two and baking as boules (are they called boules if they are just free formed balls?)


If they are round I can bake under my clay pot next time since that has helped with my regular loaves ..other any suggestions in order to keep the traditional rye torpedo shape?

ericb's picture
ericb

I made this a few nights ago, and WOW, what flavor! It was difficult to make, though, because the dough was so sticky.


At first, I assumed that this was due to the rye flour. After reading through the comments, I'm starting to wonder if the problem was incorrect hydration. 


The dough was so sticky that I couldn't shape it into a boule without heavily dusting it in flour. As a result, I ended up with flour lines inside the finished loaf **hangs head in shame.**


I followed the recipe closely, substituting KA AP for First Clear. I think I will try to make it again tonight, but will add more white flour until it is easier to manage. 

leahweinberg's picture
leahweinberg

Hey,


Im relatively new to breadbaking, and I live in Israel. Would you mind explaining to me what clear flour is? 


Thanks! 


Leah 

Dragonbones's picture
Dragonbones

zolablue quotes Reinhart in another post as saying:


"...Professional bakers use the designations clear flour and patent flour for types of white flour (as opposed to whole-wheat flour, a category unto itself in which the entire wheat berry is preserved in the flour).  They indicate what part of the wheat berry has been sifted through and packaged.  Clear flour, which means the flour that clears the first sifting (to separate out the bran and germ), still retains some of the finer bran fiber from the outer endosperm of the wheat berry and is thus coarser and contains higher levels of ash.  This flour is often used in rye breads and is usually made from very strong, high-protein wheat.  Rarely is clear flour sold in regular markets, but it is a good value for professional bakers who can use it in whole-grain and high-fiber breads.


Patent flour, sometimes called "second clear," is flour that has passed through a second sifting, thus retaining only the pure inner endosperm, or white interior, of the wheat berry.  It is the purest grade and shows up in stores as bleached or unbleached all-purpose, pastry, bread, or high-gluten flour..."

xaipete's picture
xaipete

You can buy 1st clear flour on the King Arthur site. I recently bought some and I think it was because of this recipe which I plan to make.


--Pamela

Shlomo Dovid's picture
Shlomo Dovid

Hi All, first posting here. I used to buy from an in town bakery a sack of clear flour I needed for a big batch of Deli Rye. Also, if you have a restaurant supply house (like R. Depot) they should also have it.


Susan, the rye loafs and interiors look so professional I went to my cabinet to smell the caraway!

ThaiWay's picture
ThaiWay

I have not tired to do bread other than my old favorite Antique White in my trusty Zojirushi machine for many years, let alone venturing into sourdough for decades.  I stumbled onto TFL while searching online for a new recipe to try, and I'm so glad I did.  I used Eric's basic rye starter, halved the recipe, and produced a wonderfully fragrant, chewy, flavorful loaf.  I was abit taken aback tho at the flat pancake shape on my first attempt, even tho it tasted great! 


Now here's my second:


2nd Rye attempt


Looks like I still have some adjustments to make.  A bit of a blowout on both sides?  For this try, I added a bit more flour and the dough was a little less sticky;  I think I need to reduce the hydration even more.  I cheated and used my machine to mix, rest, and knead everything before turning out into a lightly oiled bowl for doubling.  The first time I tried jkandell's higher baking temps and the crust turned out quite hard, even with the 10 minute steaming.  I did proof for just 45 minutes which I think was more than adequate;  I don't - as yet - have a pizza stone tho.  This attempt used Eric's 370deg, and it's softer.  Here's the crumb shot:


2nd Rye Crumb shot


Any suggestions?  I'm still feeding that original rye starter, without refrigeration, and it's bubbling daily... seems to be heading in the right direction.  Although I'm quite inexperienced as to what it actually should be smelling like/doing after a week of this.


Thanks to Susan for the great pics to get me motivated, to Eric for the wonderful recipe, and all the other tips!  This really is a wonderful forum... I can't wait to try more!


John in Bangkok

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

This is also my favourite rye loaf..and I'm by no means an expert. What I do is rise it in an oval banneton then bake on a stone under an upended clay pot for 15 minutes at 450, then 370 for an additional 20 minutes. My loaf is a small 500 gram size. One thing I noticed..did you slash the loaf?



 

ThaiWay's picture
ThaiWay

forget to slash the loaf!  Now I have to try to find some double edge razor blades here!  My first attempt slash with a knife was far from pretty.


I like your 500g size... prefect for a 2-person home like mine.  Beautiful rich golden color too!


John in Bangkok

ehanner's picture
ehanner

John and Jackie,


Both of your breads look great! I have been using a higher oven temperature to bake this bread and I like the harder crust I get from it. I also leave the bread in the oven for 3-5 minutes after I shut the heat off with the door held open with a spatula to help dry out the crust. Otherwise the crust gets so soft it is hard to slice evenly when it cools down I find.


What kind of rye flour are you using John? It looks like a light rye. You might try a whole grain or dark rye. It has a deeper flavor. This is still my Favorite Rye sandwich bread. Glad you are enjoying it.


Eric

ThaiWay's picture
ThaiWay

now that I posted pics of my 2nd attempt Eric... I was hungry for a better loaf, the starter had peaked, but I did not have enough of the right flours... less than a cup of the Dark Rye (Stone Ground) and less than a cup of Hard Wheat, so I had to make up the difference with Bread Flour.  That, and forgetting to slash :-(


There is only one Supermarket in town that carries stone ground or specialty flours; they are imported from Australia in small one-pound paper bags, and fairly inexpensive.  I have not yet found a health food or baker's shop here.  If I do - and that's a BIG if - I'm sure their import prices will be sky high.  From what I've read, I think the Hard Wheat is similar to First Clear? 


One other thing... the simple rye starter I began two weeks ago?  For one of the daily feedings recently, instead of tossing it, I put the extra in the fridge.  (Neither the Rye nor the WW starters I started have been refrigerated yet.)  Yesterday I took it out, stirred it, and let it come to room temp.  I then fed it with the Dark Rye, 100% hydration.  When I checked back a couple hours later it had magically come back to life, inflated and bubbly!  It doesn't take a whole lot to impress this noob.


John in Bangkok

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

There is no 'first clear' flour available to me here in Canada.  I make my small loaf with bread flour and I add 1/2 Tbsp of gluten flour.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Jackie9999,


I wouldn't be to concerned with the gluten additive. I frequently make this loaf with any kind of rye and plain bread flour. Just make sure you develop the gluten with kneading and a few stretch and folds. Keep the dough temp at the warm range and ferment until double and you will be fine.


Eric

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

Thanks for the tip Eric ...I will try that next time. I'm not sure what's in the gluten flour..if it's not making any difference than I'd rather leave it out.

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I thought this a good time to finally get around to trying your favorite rye recipe...I have all that cornbeef!!  I'm not experienced making rye breads, but I absolutely love rye with caraway and so I just used what I had handy...KABF and dark rye and some wonderful fresh caraway...I should have made the smaller loaf a little darker roast...I wasn't sure what temperature and didn't handel the dough the way I wanted to...terribly actually but the practice was great and I will definately be making it again.  I just cut the batch in half not weighing and one loaf was larger than the other and the larger one got a bit of a blowout...I should have let it proof longer..next time I would like more slashes too..they were kinda of fun.  I will cut into them tomorrow..and hope! Thanks again, Eric!


Sylvia


salma's picture
salma

I have made David Snyder's multigrain breads about 3 tiimes with wonderful results (I will post some pictures) and thought I would change it up for hubby and try Eric's Fav Rye.  I never reach for rye bread for a sandwich myself but I have to say this one came out delicious and since I have my daughter to finally help me with posting pictures, I hope to do just that.



I refreshed my starter with 100% stoneground rye flour twice, and then didnt get a chance to proceed, so I refrigerated for 2 days.  When I put the ingredients together yesterday, I had about 30g more starter and I threw it in.  Then I forgot to add the extra yeast and sugar (I wish I had added the sugar because I like sweet).  After mixing in the KA for a few minutes, gave 3 S&Fs and altogether bulk ferment for 7 hours.  Shaped and proofed for 45m.  Baked in 450F oven (the round loaf coverd) with steam for 10m, removed the cover and lowered the temp to 350F for 30m and and 3m with oven off.  Cut the round loaf this morning (the long one went into the freezer) and it is yummy and passed the hubby test.


My bread is very holey.  Can anyone comment if this is because I had the extra starter?  What would the extra yeast have done to this loaf?


Salma


 


 


 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Your bread looks great Sylvia. It is a very forgiving recipe if you let it ferment and develop the gluten. I'm always so happy when this recipe turns out for other people, there are so many variables that can affect the outcome.


Eric

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Just what I was hopeing for, thanks, Eric!


Sylvia

Pain Partout's picture
Pain Partout

I am not the typical active "poster" (is there such a word?) on this site. Too many interests, too little time, but I DO appreciate a good loaf of bread. I make/bake all of our own bread.


Just wanted to offer Kudos to Eric, for his wonderful recipe. The best rye bread I have ever tried from an online source.


ehanner, thanks, for offering a great recipe, accurate in its presentation and always worth making.   I might add that we are NOT into sugar 'round here (pun?).


 


 


 

rocketbike's picture
rocketbike

I've just tried this recipe for the first time.  I'm pleased with the result, but I did have  some trouble with the glaze.  Should I be soaking the (hot) crust by applying lots, or just enough to make the salt stick?  Whatever I tried, it seemed to vaporize immediately, with no visible effect.



R.

vink's picture
vink

I am totally new to bread baking, and have been looking for a rye recipe to start with. My first two sourdough attempts didn't fare very well, but I just tried this recipe and it came out awesome. I made some minor adjustments (added a little vital gluten, and also ended up proofing the dough overnight in the fridge because I ran out of time.) 

Here is a picture of the crumb.  When I do it again (I have half the dough still in the fridge), I will bake it a little longer so that the inside comes out less moist. The internal temp was only about 190 when I took this one out. 

 

vink's picture
vink

Hi,

I tried this recipe again this weekend. I am quite pleased with the results. Pictures are attached below. The crumb came out much better, I think. However, the crust is nothing like the nice golden crust in Susan's picture at the top of this thread. There are few things I can try that I list here, suggestions most welcome!

  • I didn't brush with corn starch solution in the beginning (I can also try other ways of improving steaming.)
  • I can start the baking at a higher temperature, I baked at 370 for the whole time, some of the other posters above started at 450 and then went down. 
  • I am using Safeway Organic AP flour. I don't have access to FirstClear flour, but I can try some kind of bread flour.
I would probably try the higher temperature first, but I welcome any suggestions.  BTW, I baked directly on the stone and used a small loaf plan to steam, couldn't cover both loaves with a steel bowl like before because I tried to shape it as a batard -- such as it is -- and I did two loaves at the same time. Now here are the pictures.The Two LoavesThe Crumb
rvroman's picture
rvroman

This was an adventure. I have just started really attacking breadmaking. I have decided to do everything by hand to learn how things should feel. I actually decided to bake this to use as old bread in a pumpernickel recipe. I followed this recipe 95%, the only thing that I changed was the flour, I used bread flour from a local mill (no clear flour on hand). It came out amazing, the house smelled like a deli! I will definitely be making this again!

hlieboff59's picture
hlieboff59

Can someone please point me in the direction of how to make a rye starter. I would love to try this recipe.

I haven't experiemented with any starters yet. Thanks, Howard L

jackie9999's picture
jackie9999

I would go the simple route..take a little of your regular discard and feed it rye flour instead of the normal bread flour. For this recipe I'd probably take about 10g discard and add 35 water and 55 rye flour. The recipe doesn't say what hydration the 100g rye starter should be - but a few grams up and down aren't going to make a big difference.

Working with rye is going to be stickier than you're used to - experiment until you get a loaf you can be proud of :)