Sending out a search party...
I seem to have lost my ears. Or rather, my breads have. A year ago, at the start of my bread baking adventure, I tried to stick to lower hydration doughs (< 75%) in order to get the hang of things, and I scored pretty much everything, because I wanted to improve my scoring. The results were reasonably good, with fairly decent ears popping up (most of the time). So I got cocky.
Full of "I can do this now" hubris, I've graduated to 80%+ hydration doughs. The results as far as oven spring and crumb are concerned seem ok, and the loaves sing like canaries when I take them out of the oven. But the ears have gone missing. On loaf after loaf, they go just about flat again. My blade angle is low, the cuts decisive but shallow, and I've even tried dipping the blade in water or flour (haven't tried oil yet). The cuts are easy - no dragging or tearing - and they look ok prior to baking, but are all but gone afterward.
I'm puzzled. Over-proofed? Would I be getting good oven spring and open crumbs then? Poor shaping? Again - would flat ears be the only result? I put the whole banneton into a plastic bag for proofing, the way Forkish does, thus retaining all the moisture and preventing any kind of skin from forming on the surface of the loaf. Should I just cover the top of the banneton, but not the whole thing, so that a bit of a skin can form?
I see so many of you producing beautiful loaves from high hydration doughs and achieving the most gorgeous ears. What's your secret? Below are a few photos of recent loaves (80% & 82% hydration) with decent oven spring and crumbs, but no ears. Any thoughts?
Thank you and happy baking,
Vivien
Traditionally, grigne on a boule is considered a flaw. I work almost exclusively with 82% hydration and getting ears is rather random and almost entirely depends on fermentation being at just the right level (which is on the lesser fermented side of the spectrum). Your loaves look great. Wetter doughs have far less pronounced ears.
Hmmm. I confess, my newbie status is showing through (again). Until now, I hadn't actually heard the term "grigne" at all, and after googling I'm a bit confused whether that's ears or bloom or both? No matter, if you say that it used to be considered a flaw, I'll buy it. Ergo, my earless loaves must be flawless, LOL. ;)
I am heartened that you say ears are hit and miss with high hydration doughs - it makes the results of the last weeks marginally less frustrating. But being a perfectionist sort of goof, I still want ears. I know. I'm a fool. I think I may try to shorten fermentation a little, to try and catch a bit more oven spring -> bloom -> ears. It's funny how easy it is to get locked into that "double the volume" mindset. I'm also considering cranking up my initial oven temperature. I usually bake in a cast iron doufeu & DO, and generally start my bake at 250°C (~ 485°F). I'm thinking I might up it to 490-500°F, to see if that will make things pop a bit more. Here's hoping. In the near future, you'll either see high hydration loaves with ears from me, or sadly under-proofed burnt offerings. Stay tuned. :)
Happy baking,
Vivien
Ears or no ears, there's something really lovely about that loaf. It just has an elegance to it. Still, I agree, go for the ears.
I wouldn't worry about scoring technique at the moment. If there is any score at all, the loaf will bust open if it wants to.
For me, the keys have been appropriate maturity of the levain, the right amount of volume increase at the end of bulk fermentation, the right amount of proofing, and of course shaping and handling. Do you have any suspicion as to which part of the process may be the culprit?
Depending on what you are leavening your bread with, I would suggest trying less proofing, if your loaves are doubling in volume. One helpful experiment (though it's hard to bring yourself to do this), is to make an extra loaf and let it proof indefinitely, until it stops rising and starts falling and is ruined. Then you know exactly what the rising cycle looks like, which allows you to understand exactly what stage in the rising process you are baking it at. You want to interrupt the rising process and bake well before the peak. The poke test is much less informative than this.
Yes, I would avoid sealing the bread up in a bag at any step. That skin that forms is helpful.
Oven temp: I have found that the best way to determine these kinds of questions is to go too far with it. Find the limit, and you will feel oriented. Have you ever found that the oven is too hot during the first half of the bake? I regularly heat my oven to 535, that way it is right about at 500 after I open and close the door. I have found that the only way to get some heavy, wet doughs to rise is with extreme heat. I have never been able to bake wet, heavy bread too hot (during the first half, in the dutch oven), with a domestic gas oven.
Much appreciated.
Hmmm...the more I think about it, the more I suspect it's a combination of volume increase during proofing, initial baking temperature and lack of a skin. Although I have been using the poke test to determine proper proofing, I am now learning (from here and elsewhere online) that this test isn't all that useful for high hydration doughs. But I have been letting the loaves approximately double in volume before baking, and perhaps that's the major problem.
Secondarily, I'm seeing lots of posts suggesting an initial baking temperature of 500°F to maximize oven spring, bloom and ears, and although I've calibrated my oven and know that 485°F is actually 485°F, that may just not be enough. As I said, I bake in cast iron, and I have a baking stone on the very bottom to keep the heat even. I'll try cranking the initial temp to 500°F and see what happens.
And then there's the plastic bag during proofing. And I also cover the loaves during bench rest (with the plastic tub in which the bulk ferment took place), so these loaves really have no chance to dry even a little. I've seen a number of recipes here, where at least part of the bench rest is done uncovered. I might try that.
I'm currently on stage 2 of a yeast water levain build, and will make some of these changes with this bake. We'll see what happens. Thanks again for your help.
Those are great looking loaves, and the crumb suggests it is very nicely proofed. If you want more dramatic ears you may need to cut more deeply, and you can proof slightly less...another possibility is excess steam, which can wash out the edges a bit
I think I should shorten the final proof a little in the hopes of better bloom. I don't think it's excess steam, because I bake in cast iron, so the loaves steam themselves during the initial bake... Then again, these are very wet doughs, and presumably produce a lot of steam. But I'm getting nice, crisp crusts that sing, not rubbery or chewy crusts, so I think the steam is ok. Thanks again.
I started the SD "journey" with high hydration dough right from the beginning. Getting enough gluten development is a real challenge.
My experience has been to focus on gluten tension in initial mixing, as well as shaping.
Your loaf looks excellent, and the spring also looks great. How do you get enough gluten development? What is your baking method, and how do you ensure there is enough steam?
Cheers-
Dave
Like you, I pay a great deal of attention to building a strong gluten matrix, both during mixing and through stretch & fold and shaping. I try not to over-mix, but I make sure my dough passes the window pane test before I start bulk fermentation. And, depending on the dough, I do 3 - 4 S & F cycles during the first 2 hours of bulk fermentation. I'm also quite fastidious about pre-shaping and shaping, with tension pulls and hand shaping, so that the boules are as tight as can be (without tearing the surface) before they go into the bannetons. I can't count how many times I've watched the KA videos with Jeffrey Hamelman and the high hydration shaping video from SFBI. Finally, I'm in Canada, so I have access to high protein Canadian wheat flour. As long as I keep my starters mild (not too acidic), I think the high gluten content of our flour helps. Baking method and steam, as mentioned above, are baking in cast iron so that steam is self-regulated. I think that part is ok, but I'm going to try cranking the initial temperature to 500°F.
Thanks and happy baking,
Vivien
Those look absolutely gorgeous, actually. Many of the photos in the best bread books look just like that, especially the boules. I don't think there's anything wrong with them at all.
One thing you might try, if you want the scoring to open up differently, is to heat the oven to 475F or 500F, then put the bread in with steam and, after five minutes, turn the oven down to 450 or 425. This will turn off the upper element and stop the crust from setting before the oven spring is complete. I've found that some of my batards don't have ears either if they are on the top shelf of the oven to start and the oven is still trying to maintain a high heat (meaning the upper element is on). A clue to this happening is when the open part of the slash is just as dark and crisp as the rest of the crust. It should be lighter, like the loaf below.
Wow, the ears on your batards are glorious! I can only drool and dream. What you say about turning the oven down after 5 minutes makes perfect sense, but I bake in cast iron. Would it make any difference in that scenario, do you think? Generally, I start the bake high, lids on, turn the oven down after ~20 minutes, remove the lids after 30 minutes and bake a further 15 - 20 minutes. Would the crust be setting at the high initial temperature, even with the lids on the DOs?
Happy baking,
Vivien
I generally bake my boules in small cast iron pots too, and use the same technique pretty much. I preheat the oven and pots to 475F, then when they are all loaded with dough and back in the oven I immediately turn it down to 450F. I bake with lids on for 25 to 30 minutes (depending on the size and type of loaves), then remove the lids and turn the heat down again to 425F, continuing to bake for another 20 minutes-ish. That also avoids the burnt bottoms on the loaves. Here is a smallish (600 gram) boule baked that way.
And here's a batch just out of the oven last Friday...
Beautiful. And I'm seeing lovely ears. Do you remember what the hydration on these was? Maybe I should try turning down the heat twice, the way you do. I do occasionally find that the loaves brown rather quickly once the lids are removed. Thanks again.
Thanks! Overall hydration on these ones is 74%. They are a Stout Multigrain; blog post is here.
I think I may have to try that recipe one day soon - it looks fantastic.
That might be part of the story. Boules are more often scored with the blade held perpendicular to the upper surface of the boule. See David's tutorial for examples. And note that the ears generally aren't evident in the photos showing the results of this technique.
Paul
I should have been more specific. I meant my blade angle is low on the lip or ear cuts, such as the outside square on both these loaves. For the inside + cuts, the blade is held perpendicular to the loaf ... I don't think these cuts would be possible otherwise. I gleaned this information from KA, specifically here. I was hoping that this technique would give me a nice "quartered" chapeau, but it hasn't. For other types of cuts I do hold the blade perpendicular to the loaf, but ears still seem to elude me on high hydration breads. Not sure why.
Thank you for your help, Paul, and happy baking!
I've completed a couple of bakes over the last few days, one with a raisin water levain, one with a wheat levain, at 80/82% hydration. I implemented some of the changes as discussed, starting the bake at only about 75% volume increase of the final proof, and cranking the initial temperature to 500°F, then reducung it twice during the bake (first to 475°F, then to 450°F). The result, as you see below, was the loveliest oven spring I've ever achieved with hydration above 75%, nice open crumbs and scrumptious bread ... but still no ears. I guess maybe I'll just have to be patient, keep practicing, and perhaps one day, an ear will sprout again. I know, however, that after having tasted high hydration breads, I'm not returning to the lower zone, ears or not.
Thank you all very much for your help and feed-back. I sincerely appreciate it.
Happy baking,
Vivien
Looks great. As dabrowman suggested, if you want ears, make a different shaped loaf. Either bâtard or a loaf shape generally yields good results.
Who needs ears anyway, right? :)
them one time at a shallow angle. Use the same proof and baking temperatures as the least loaves. Boules aren't supposed to have ears.
you got a great crumb! well done.
It is interesting to read that boules shouldn't have ears, I didn't know that.
Happy baking
Leslie