Clammy/rubbery sourdough crumb
First of all, hello! I've been lurking for a few months since starting my new found hobby. I'm a new baker but I've been reading mostly about the techniques and science behind bread as opposed to blindly following recipes (hence my name). Because of that, I've had a lot of good breads come out of my oven. Stuff that I'm surprised by... with the exception of my sourdough.
I have tried 4 or 5 times now to get a 75% hydration sourdough to come out to my liking, but clearly my understanding of how to make sourdough is missing something. My yeasted 75% doughs come out amazingly so I'm sure that my technique for handling a sticky dough works.
I've tried quite a few permutations of ferment times, and gluten-forming techniques. Slap and fold, stretch and folds, long warm ferments, short warm with long cool ferments, 20%, 10%, 0% whole wheat. In all cases, the bread has come out with a rock-hard crust and a dense, sticky/rubbery crumb.
The most recent experiment:
100% KA Bread Flour
75% water
20% fed starter (50% white/50% rye 100% hydration at the peak of rising)
2% water salt
I made a small batch (325g flour) because I hadn't made a large batch of levain, plus this was more about the experiment than making bread to eat.
Dissolved started in water
Mixed in flour until shaggy
Rest (autolyse) 40 min
Added salt
Slap and Fold until smooth and elastic
Let rise at 65F (18C) until it actually doubled. This isn't normally what I do, but the sourdough never feels as "alive" as my yeasted doughs so I wanted to try. What really happened was I left it all day while I was at work. Probably 10 hours.
When I got home, it had slightly more than doubled.
Degassed and preshaped
Rest for 30 minutes
Sharped and put in bread form
Rest for ~1 as oven preheated with dutch oven
Baked 470F (240C) covered for 20 minutes
Baked 420F (215C) uncovered for 30 minutes
Let cool 2 hours before cutting
Cutting into it, same old story. The crumb is shiny and looks plastic. The texture is best described as damp, clammy, rubbery.
I have read through all of the similar posts I could find and a lot of the consensus was around baking for longer at a lower temperature. Since the bread is pretty much inedible as is, I put it back in the oven this morning at 350F (170F) to see if I can dry it out a little.
Sounds like you've almost got it, really. For how long did you do the slap and folds after mixing in the salt? Try doing it for at least 20 minutes, maybe more, or mix it in a stand mixer at medium speed (yes, medium speed) for six to eight minutes, and see what difference that makes.
because you didn't count the flour and water in your starter when calculating the hydration.
100 gm flour + 10 gm flour in the starter = 110 gm
75 gm water plus 10 gm water in the starter = 85 gm
85/110 = 77.3% hydration
I'm assuming the last "2% water" is actually salt.
The crumb of an all-white loaf at 77% or 75% hydration should be somewhat glossy and gelatinous. I can't tell from the photo if there's a problem with your bread, your expectations aren't completely in line with your recipe/method or some combination.
I haven't been able to get a straight answer on whether or not to include the starter flour in the total flour weight. I've seen it argued both ways on this forum.
When I make a 75% yeasted all-white, the crumb is soft, light, and not too shiny. It's very nice. That's what is setting my expectation, but maybe it's not comparable because of other factors (like the acidity?).
I have tried the Tartine Country Loaf recipe (which included some whole wheat flour) as well as some variations on that recipe that I've found online and they all are coming out exactly the same: clammy and rubbery with very shiny holes. I thought maybe it was something wrong with my starter but I have made lower hydration breads with it that come out nicer.
I really don't have a good idea of what this is supposed to turn out like, just that what I am getting isn't very good. Below is a Tartine example that had more or less the same crumb.
If not, these two hypothetical loaves would both be 75% hydration:
400 gm flour, 300 gm water, 50 gm 100% starter
400 gm flour, 300 gm water, 500 gm 100% starter
So would these two:
400 gm flour, 300 gm water, 50 gm 50% starter
400 gm flour, 300 gm water, 500 gm 50% starter
How useful would hydration % be if it were the same for all these disparate recipes and more?
In addition, in both pairs, adding 2% salt relative to the non-prefermented flour only would produce a marked difference in end product's saltiness compared to 2% of the total flour weight. So, the 2% guideline couldn't / wouldn't exist.
Shifting topics, did you measure the volume doubling or eyeball it? If the latter, it's not uncommon to think dough has expanded less than it actually has, which can mean some degree of over-proofing.
Also, with SD, you might want to aim for a little less than doubling to begin with.
Your initial post mentions degassing, which isn't typically a step in SD recipes. The dough will degas to some degree when it's handled, but in general, the idea is to minimize how much; basically, because natural yeast produces gas at a lower rate, you don't want to lose it, never mind expel it intentionally.
I'll make sure I include the levain flour in the calculation.
It was doubled by volume. I have a clear container that I draw a line on with a dry-erase marker so I can see when it doubles. For the OP loaf, I was worried about over-proofing because of the long bulk (while at work).
As for degassing, I was referring to trying to pop and very large pockets while still treating the dough gently.
Are both loaves in both of your posts the breads in question? If so, they look right. Such a bread is far moister and denser than other kinds of bread (including yeasted). Under proofing makes for a gummy loaf; but your bread looks right.
Yes, both loaves are mine and have basically identical textures. I have 4 more similar pictures too. I suppose it could be that's how it's meant to come out and I just don't like it.
It's cool to the touch because it's so moist, but very rubbery and tough, like a cake that was mixed too long. It's also, kind of musty/cereal smelling compared with the starter which smells yeasty, nice and almost sweet.
I'm looking for something airy and light with a softer crumb - more like the yeasted recipes. The Tartine bread was described as moist, open and light which is why I attempted it.
On this post, someone suggests 65-68% experiments until I get the hang of it. Maybe I'll try that.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23932/tartine-bread-failures
I have made a living making this bread and have eaten from hundreds of loaves, and I would NEVER describe it as light. In fact, I describe it as moist and dense, but a good dense, not like a brick dense.
Hi, I'm new to the site too and don't mean to butt in, but how about you ditch the Dutch oven and try baking this on a stone or even just the back of a cookie sheet? Sounds like too much humidity is getting trapped and turning your crust gummy. At least bake uncovered the whole time in the DO for your next experiment.
Strongly disagree. Although it can be done, such a cooking method will result in a strange looking loaf with the wrong texture of crust.
I usually bake in a DO with my most common timing being 30 minutes with the cover on then 15 uncovered. I've never gotten a crust with this or any other timing I've ever used that I'd even think of describing as gummy.
by the look of the cross sections, I think you are underproofing your loaves. Try prolonging your bulk fermentation stage and then extending your proofing time. Additionally, if you are baking these in the dutch oven with the cover on, at two third of the way remove the cover. that will at least help you with removing some of the moisture that remains in the loaves.
the first loaf looks really nice, the second set of pictures needs more fermentation...and I'm going to suggest a longer bulk will help (I've made soooooo many tartine loaves that looked that the second set - I think the first loaf looks dramatically better...perhaps because it had such a long bulk (?)). I can also relate to your sourdough transition challenges...and might suggest you try using fairly warm water for your mix (mid 80's or higher if the everything else is quite cold), unless you need to let it ferment all day while you are at work (this would address the worries about it 'feeling alive').
You might also consider more vigorous/extensive folding early on...although I'm not sure you need to mix as intensively as LL suggests (I think 3-4 minutes on KA medium speed is quite sufficient...but as always...pay attention to the dough, not the clock).
And no, don't ditch the dutch oven...best cooking environment for this bread.
The first loaf is using my yeasted bread technique (slap and fold, bulk until doubled). The second loaf is using the Tartine recipe to the letter (turns every 1/2 hour) and also to the clock (which is probably why it's under proofed).
The consistency/texture is what's really bothering me. It's so moist, almost damp, and the texture is almost meaty or spongy. I described it above like a cake that was mixed too long and got tough.
How would you describe your loaves' texture? Given that I've had so many come out exactly the same, I'm starting to wonder if that's what they are supposed to be like and I just happen to not like it.
Ah. My attempts at making a Tartine Country Loaf "to the letter" have all produced pretty mediocre loaves. I can't for the life of me make Chad's recipe work in my kitchen with my starter.
I can, however, make tasty, well-risen loaves that approach the genuine article in flavor. I just have to selectively disregard a few key points.
- First, the size of the dough (i.e. "doubled") never enters into my equation. I do turns @ 30 minute intervals for 3 to 4 hours, then form the loaf. The dough gets noticeably softer and fluffier during that time, but is far from doubled.
- Proofing needs to be way, way, way longer than Chad indicates in the book. I typically proof for 8 hours overnight in a cool kitchen, sometimes as long as 10 hours. NOT in the fridge, but on the countertop.
- I use half as much leavan as the official Tartine recipe. Actually, I generally just use straight-up starter. Your mileage starter may vary.My perambulations around this site and elsewhere on the web suggest that my approach is somewhat nonstandard. That said, I've read statements from both Josey Baker and Chad Robertson that the key to their bread is a long proofing time. I took that advice and ran with it, and I'm still running.
You may not like the style, but your crumb is still not there to judge the style yet. A more fully fermented loaf, with sufficiently developed dough should give you a crumb that is at least softer than what is pictured above (and less 'meaty').
Another point for this thread is that Chad doesn't call for doubling...more like 30% increase in volume.
Coincidentally, this past week or so, I've gone back to baking batches of Tartine's basic country loaf - by the book, and been enjoying it. I have increased the hydration quite a bit lately, but throughout, his times work well for me if everything else is on track.
Lots of people make adjustments, as they should to accommodate different conditions, as well as tastes, but the book certainly shows one possible way to do it well. I think he understates the need for vigorous mixing/stretching and folding early on.
if you don't like the way it is turning out, why don't you try. 1:2:3 SD loaf which has a hydration about 71-72% I believe. 1 part SD levain : 2 parts water : 3 parts flour with 2% salt. I get a really nice light loaf with this and you can make any combination of flours you like (my most recent had 10% spelt). You can use the rye/white mix in the levain too. Have a go see what you think and I agree with others, definitely don't ditch the DO.
Happy baking
Leslie
It's 75% only because I'm following the Tartine basic country loaf recipe. It might be that the thing I don't like is part of what other people _do_ like (the shiny, chewy, gelatinous crumb).
Trying a lower hydration is my project for Sunday. The 1:2:3 sounds like it might work, but I'm going to try a 65% first for a better contrast to really see what 10% hydration makes in the texture of the crumb.
Wet Tartine bread
If I understand correctly, you bulk fermented for 10h, then shaped and proofed in ~2h? Unless your kitchen went from 65F during bulk to 80F at proof, your loaf would've been underproofed.
Your dough doubles in 10h, your proof should be at least 4h, possibly as much as 10h. I know, that's a big range. Wild yeast is much more sensitive to temperature and timing. Commercial yeast is nearly bulletproof, letting me get away with over-fermenting, underproofing, too hot, too cold, as suits my schedule and my environment. Pretty much every sourdough recipe is more temperamental in comparison.
These two are rather different in fermentation and degassing. I would not say "the same crumb."
That's the two cut sides of the same loaf. :-)
The loaf in the first post and the loaf above are pretty different, I'll agree. The first loaf, I spent more time kneading, more time fermenting, more time pretty much everything. I was a lot happier with the open-ness of the crumb but I still didn't like the consistency/texture.
The loaf above was the Tartine recipe which only calls for turns during bulk. It was underdeveloped for sure, but the clammy, cool, "meaty" feel of the crumb was the same.
Based on your description and follow-up pictures, your bread is most likely underproofed. Probably due to an underactive starter.
The thing with high hydration bread is that unless you have a very active starter, a strong rise and a big ovenspring it will usually end up with dense portions in the crumb and that underbaked "gummy" quality. To get that soft custardy texture associated with Tartine style bread, the crumb really needs to open up in order for it to bake thoroughly.
The fact that it takes your dough 10 hours to double strongly implies that you don't have a sufficiently active starter. Your kitchen temp is pretty cold at 65F. Sourdough starters typically prefer a warmer environment. The majority of underproofed bread (that I've seen anyway) can usually be traced back to insufficient starter strength. And that's a result of an ineffective starter maintenance routine (or a cold kitchen). For good quality Tartine style bread your starter should be able to at least double in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (at a reasonable room temp, and a reasonable feed ratio -- something like 1:2:2), though tripling is volume is much preferred.
I suggest finding a warmer environment to keep your dough/starter and/or adjusting your maintenance routine until your starter can double or triple in volume within 8 hours of refreshment.
Cheers!
Trevor
I know your advice was meant for the OP whose starter is of unknown provenance. I'm wondering if you think a warmer environment is necessary for best results even when the starter has a proven history?
My own kitchen runs 60-65F, and it does take my starter 8-10h to double in the winter, never less than 8h. In the summer, it's 2-3h. I do notice the flavour profile is different, but spring and summer doughs undergo more retardation to make the timing fit into life. In winter, both the starter and dough spend most of their time on the counter.
Maybe there are other differences I should look for in a dough brought up at ideal temps. I don't have an appropriately cozy spot for the starter; the fridge is built into the cabinets, water heater is insulated, etc. I'd have to invest in equipment to study this for myself. Worth it, or not?
I keep mine in my oven with the oven light on and the door slightly cracked with a wooden spoon. I put a thermometer in there and in my oven it keeps it around 78F which is a pretty good temperature for proofing too. Oven light bulbs are pretty cheap too if you're worried about cost.
Using the oven light works well for levain or starter which have a small volume. Fermenting or proofing dough requires I rotate it every couple of hours or the side closer to the bulb gets fluffier. I'm not sure I'm so dedicated to science that I'm willing to be enslaved to that oven light. ;)
I don't think your dough handling (by itself) could be the cause of your dissatisfaction. Rough handling can close the crumb somewhat, but it doesn't make the texture gummy or rubbery if you get everything else right. For some recipes I use yeast water, which is even slower than SD in cool temps, but it's capable of tripling volume. I've been fooled repeatedly and recently; when I'm not patient the crumb is just as you describe, clammy, and rubbery. And that's for breads with a much lower hydration ~70%.
A weak starter can produce a similar result. Usually, a month is sufficient for good bread, but if you've grown yours at 65F, the yeast have had many fewer generations to establish themselves, compared to a starter of the same age at 78F. The biome in there might not be quite up to snuff for high hydration. You can try a lower hydration with the same timing to see if you like it better. Then you can eliminate bulk/proof times as variables.
Keep experimenting, you'll sort it out!
My starter doubles in about 8 hours at 68F and probably around 6 if I keep it in the oven with the light on. I left the dough 10 hours to rise because I was away for work. I'm not sure exactly when it doubled, but it was slightly more than doubled (by volume) when I got home.
It is a new starter (just over 1 month old now) so it's very likely that it's not up to the task yet.
I do agree that your starter needs to be very active and bubbly for these types of doughs. However, something is causing those huge holes in your loaves, so the yeasts must be releasing a fair amount of gas or the loaves would be dense and heavy throughout.
I still think the dough is underworked. The gluten has not been developed well enough to support all the gases released by the yeasts. I know a lot of bakers rely on a long fermentation (refrigerated or not) to develop the gluten, but in my experience (and this is actual experience, not just reading and thinking), I have frequently ended up with the dense, gummy loaves with big cavities in them when I've used a light touch. When I mix the dough moderately intensively, the dough ends up stronger, springier and stretchier and more capable of holding shape.
I always ferment my doughs at least overnight so the length of the ferment isn't the difference. And I always use the same culture for making my levains, so that's not the difference either. I'm not saying everyone will have the same experience but it might be worth a try.
I've been getting more and more aggressive with kneading (usually slap and fold for this dough) and I've been having better results.
One thing I don't have a good sense for is how rough to be with the dough after bulk during shaping. What I've read and seen online is that you should be pretty gentle here but I'm not sure what that means exactly. I've found I can be pretty heavy handed with yeast breads during shaping, but I'm not sure if I can be that rough with SD.
What I do now (just shaped a batch of eight Country Blondes!), is to pat each piece out, sort of like focaccia (poking my fingers into it just to pop the big bubbles) then do at least one letter fold, and two if the dough is stretchy and soft enough. I then let it rest for about 20 minutes to relax. Then I sort of roll it, pressing my fingers along the seam at every roll, popping the bigger bubbles as I do this but not pressing down on the rest of the roll. I pinch the seams and ends closed and then pull the batard across the bench, tightening the skin. Hope this all makes sense, without pictures!
The only bread I'm really gentle with shaping is focaccia, because I do want the big holes in that. Otherwise I like a nice open, chewy, shiny crumb on my sourdoughs but without the dense gummy bits or really huge holes. Open but a bit more consistency.
> What I've read and seen online is that you should be pretty gentle here but I'm not sure what that means exactly. I've found I can be pretty heavy handed with yeast breads during shaping, but I'm not sure if I can be that rough with SD.
Generally speaking, you have to be a lot gentler with sourdough. The wild yeast doesn't have the strength to recover from severe de-gassing.
I start out my turns pretty aggressively, but get gentler and gentler with each 30 minute turn. By the time I'm shaping the dough, I'm treating it (figuratively) with kid gloves.
hi! I know this is an old thread but by any chance you were able to fix the issue regarding the rubbery clammy texture? I have been making and making and making the tartine recipe over and over again and it always came out like those photos you posted. I tried everything possible (different fermentation times, new starters, different oven temperatures, different type of flour, changing folding techniques, etc, etc) and the result is always the same: beautiful on the outside, not edible on the inside. Please let me know if you overcame this issue with this recipe, I’m getting crazy here. Jeje thanks!
I do my initial mixing for 5-8 minutes on low, which admittedly does start to form gluten bonds (wet dough ~82%). Then I don't do anything to it for 4 hours until the bulk is done, at which point I stretch and fold immediately before pre shaping. I have found that this strategy works plenty well for me.
FWIW I use a Dutch Oven, but I preheat to 550dF, put in the dough, score, cover, and then back in for 10 min at 550dF. I then reduce the temp to 475dF and bake another 25 minutes, then I usually uncover, shutoff the oven, and let it sit another 10 minutes.
Your temps are probably OK, but I'd go with "as hot as the oven will get."
-Dave
I read through this looking for a comment about the real temperature of the crumb when it comes out of the oven, and I didn't find any mention. While the cycle looks OK, it is hard to guess the real temperature of the oven or the DO without a measurement, and the core temperature of the loaf is harder to guess.
What was the conclusion after completing all of the experimental runs?
I'll throw in my guess here. I think your starter might be proteolytic. That would explain why your yeasted loaves would turn out fine, but your starter ones would be gummy. The gluten never gets to form, so you're left with protein, but not in a nice form for baking.
How often do you refresh your starter and feed it? If you keep it in the fridge, 200g starter (100g flour at 100% hydration) lasts about a week or 2 tops. Even if it doubles in size in the right amount of time, the balance could be off. If it has a layer of liquid on top and smells like nail polish remover or strong liquor before refreshing, I'd bet it's not balanced. Also, the starter would be a bit runny when it doubles. Proper starter at 100% hydration would have a web-like dough structure when pulled and fall in clumps when drizzled from a spoon. Proteolytic starter will seem like really thick pancake batter or honey/syrup when drizzled off a spoon.
If that's the case, try discarding all but a tablespoon of starter for each feeding and give it at least 100g flour and 100g water every 12 hours for a few days (anywhere from 2-7 days).