The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Bread progression - is more mixing what I'm missing?

germ's picture
germ

Bread progression - is more mixing what I'm missing?

I'm trying to make naturally leavened bread and have been trying the Tartine recipe without much success.  Today I tried Jeffrey Hamelman's Vermount Sourdough from "Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes" and I'm glad I did, because I finally got decent looking and tasting bread.  The major difference was that his recipe called for lower hydration (65%, but I wound up with something slightly higher) and mixing with a stand mixer -- the Tartine recipe I was using was like 75% and calls for no stand mixer.

After my first failed Tartine attempt I tried adding some slap and folds, which seemed to help, but I still can't get a good looking crumb (or flavor) with his bread recipe.

Has anyone else struggled with the Tartine bread?  I always end up with really sticky dough that leaves big holes at the top.

Today's (or bread C) was the easiest to shape and it may have been because I did about 40 slap and folds ahead of time.  It calls for a long proof, but I took it out about halfway longer than recommended because of how much success I had with bread D, which I started at the same time.

Edit:

Also worth noting is that this bread consistently has a very off-putting sour flavor.  I think it may be due to dispersing it in the water first.  I used the same levain in bread D and the flavor was much better in that bread -- which interestingly called for twice amount of levain.

hreik's picture
hreik

Your VSD looks great.

 

A lot of people have trouble w Tartine I think b/c of the hydration.  Imho, Hamelman is a master.  I use a version of VSD , Norwich SD which is my go-to bread.  http://www.wildyeastblog.com/my-new-favorite-sourdough/

It's superb and easy to make.

hester

germ's picture
germ

@hreik, that looks great.  I really like her blog and I think I'm going to try this next.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

and yes, the hydration is lower with Hamelman's bread.  You can always try a Tartine again but reduce it to say 70% hydration.  Do you store your levain in the fridge and build what you need for each bake? I do and my bread is not sour at all.  I agree with Hester's comments too.

Good luck and you will get there

Leslie

 

germ's picture
germ

@leslieruf, thanks for the reply.  I may try that for my next Tartine attempt.  I always heard that you have to let it warm up to build up the yeast activity and that cold temperatures also favor acetic acid over lactic.  As a result, I've been a little scared of the fridge.

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I store my starter there and feed it about every 4 - 6 weeks. I build a levain each time I bake. I do the bulk ferment on the bench at room temperature then shape and do the final proof in the fridge over night. I bake straight from the fridge.  some people do part bulk ferment on the bench then retard in fridge with cold shaping and room temperature final proof before baking. You  make it fit what ever suits you. 

Good luck and happy baking

Leslie

Modern Jess's picture
Modern Jess

I have issues with the Tartine recipe, but it's primarily down to the amount of time it takes to do bulk rise and proof. Because my kitchen isn't 80°, it takes quite a bit longer to do both. I've found, though, that if I do a very long proof (typically 8 hours on the countertop in a cool kitchen overnight) I can get a really good rise.

I've never, ever had to resort to slap and fold. I've never even tried it. The key to the Tartine method (and something I've adopted now for almost every loaf I make) is regular turns in the mixing bucket / bowl. Generally, I opt for 30 minute intervals between turns, but I have been known to reduce it to 20 if I'm in a time crunch. I do turns aggressively at first, and get gentler as the bulk rise progresses. This gives me excellent gluten development with a minimum of effort, and gives me great results fairly consistently.

germ's picture
germ

My main complaint about the Tartine bread I try is not even how it looks, but the taste and smell.  It is very very sour.  Almost unpalatable at times.  What I'm doing is feeding my liquid levain twice a day:  9a and 9p.  To try to keep the sourness down I've been feeding it with 65F water and only 9% remaining starter.  I use 25% WW and 75% Malted Bread Flour for the flour blend.  My kitchen runs about 74F - 76F.

For the last bake I refreshed 10h earlier before incorporating it in the dough (through the water dispersion instructions).

My starter is about 1 month old and I feed it before it falls, but several hours after peek.  It does smell of a slightly strong alcohol smell at its peak.

I didn't do a good job of creating the starter and let it get a real strong alcohol smell several times.  It somehow survived.  Maybe I've been cultivating the wrong type of bacteria -- if that's even a thing?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

that could be in your starter and or some combination of them mist likely.  Each culture produces a different flavor.  The wee beasties come from the flour you use.  If you don't like the flavor of the bread you are making just start a new starter using flour that came from grain grown in a different place and milled by a different miller.   Making new starters different ways is part for thd fun of SD bread making.  I try to make a new on about every month just for fun and to see what knd of bread it makes.

Happy baking

dosco's picture
dosco

The alcohol smell sounds normal to me. Have you ever brewed beer? Ripe, room temperature starter smells (to me) very much like actively fermenting beer. Starter that has been refrigerated for awhile tend to smell (to me) like fruity alcohol with a touch of vinegary or sour smell.

As far as the relative sourness, I understand that can be attributed to the amount of starter in the final dough, as well as the hydration of the preferment ... I tend to start and continue the build on the lower end, around 70%. The recipe I use, Reinhart's Basic SD, is about 10 oz starter, 20 oz flour, and 15 oz of water (more or less). I seem to recall the 1-2-3 SD had a similar proportion of starter to final dough (my memory is hazy, though).

-Dave

 

dosco's picture
dosco

dabrownman:
I was under the impression that SD cultures tend to evolve to a "settling point" over time (for lack of a better phrase) based on the conditions in which they live. Would making a new starter culture eventually result in the same end product?

Cheers-

Dave

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

it to be taken over by other wee beasties if a normal feeding is maintained.  If 20 g of starter is fed 20 g of flour and water for the first feeding, the existing wee beasties have a huge head start over any other ones in the new flour added and the pH is still plenty low enough to keep the bad ones at bay.  But, if you take 2 g of starter and feed it 400 g of flour and water then all bets are off when it comes to what is going to take over.  I did 1 g of starter 100 g of flour several times and there was no change that I could tell at any rate.

What can happen is that if you use the same flour to feed all the time and use large feedings to starter ratios, some of the acid tolerant wee beasties in that flour can hang in there in small amounts each feeding and infiltrate the culture over time and can  take it over eventually.  I think this is what happens to many cultures.  This is why I like to use lager starter to flour feeding ratios for the feedings and do a  3 stage build of 4 hours each to make it less likely that nothing else can take hold of the culture over time. 

Many times I fold one starter into another if I like them both, just to see what the change in the combined starter might be.  I always like the outcome and survival if the fittest wee beasties is a good thing :-)  It helps to keep the cultures on its toes and fighting to be the best in my book.  The combinations are usually better than either one on its own.

I don't fold in white flour starters since they tend to be weak compared to whole grain ones and lose their sour characteristics easily over time.  But most folks don't like sour bread and find that white, weakly sour starters, like Forkish and Tartine, are just grand.  

It is fun to experiment with starters.

tanjoplayer's picture
tanjoplayer

Could the use of such a high percentage (75%) of malted flour be part of the problem? Is it diastatic? It might be aiding the breakdown of the starches to sugars to an extreme, thus spurring more vigorous fermentation and destroying the gluten structure. Or, if it isn't diastatic, the flour might have too many malt sugars available to begin with, contributing to the same problem. Just a thought. I use diastatic malted flour in my doughs, but only about 1%.