The Fresh Loaf

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What to try fixing next time

seh's picture
seh

What to try fixing next time

I am new both to baking and the forum here, and started with "just" trying to make the basic country loaf from Tartine Bread. Yesterday (and, unfortunately, continuing into today) was my second attempt at it, and in both cases I've made good tasting bread but completely failed at reproducing the intermediate stages of the prescribed process.

My house is fairly cool in the winter months—around 68℉—and I've had to make use of the heater vents in the floor to get my starter going. My starter is about three weeks old now. I feed it every day (retain about 25%, replace with equal warm water and 50/50 white and whole wheat bread flour) and keep its volume between 90 and 120 g, but while it gets bubbly, fluffy, and develops "strands" when I stir it with it a spoon, it never rises and falls in the proportions I've read about here. Estimating, it probably rises about 15%. I don't know if that's indicative of a problem.

The main problem becomes manifest during the bulk fermentation phase. The dough seems rather moist. By stretching and folding it once every half hour for four hours, it develops elasticity and behaves much like the prescription in Tartine Bread—bubbles on the side, retains folds, and some increase in volume. The first time I tried it, after four ours of bulk fermentation in a plastic container, I moved on to pre-shaping. Last night, when I tried to move on to pre-shaping, I could tell that the dough seemed much like it did during my first attempt, so I aborted mission, moved the dough back into the plastic container, and put it in the refrigerator overnight. This morning, when I moved on to pre-shaping, I found myself with slightly firmer dough than the first time, but still the same problem dominates.

That problem is that the dough is heavy, tacky, and lacks a smooth skin. When I lay it out on my cutting board (smooth side up), the dough spreads out in a fat pancake. When I try to shape it with my hand and bench knife, it sticks to the bench knife. I can get it into a sort of ellipsoid shape while I'm holding it, but when I let go (and tear it off the bench knife), it slumps back down to the pancake form.

I've watched several videos of people making this bread, or similar variants, and I notice that their dough looks more smooth and dry at this stage. When they pre-shape, the dough doesn't appear to be so sticky and wet, and they get that taut skin on the surface of the shaped round.

I know that the book says that the times are suggestions, and that one has to pay attention to how the materials are behaving, but being this new to the craft I lack that perception and instinct. Still, I can tell that something is very wrong here. Some expert could probably save my dough in this state, but I find it way too difficult to pre-shape it, and when I move on to the final shape, it's almost comedic, like doing origami with soup.

I understand from reading the forum here that I can try cutting back on my hydration percentage. That's fair, though many other people are successful with the nominal 75% ratio in the recipe, so I'd like to understand what the likely culprits are here. What should I try fixing for next time?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Yikes, you are adventurous! If you do a search on this site for "Tartine" you will find many people who have had the same problems. I have had this problem too with Tartine and other wet doughs. And I've found the answer, at least for me. Many of these books sort of gloss over the step where you mix the dough and develop the gluten before the stretch & fold and bulk ferment stage. If you do this by hand you should do it for at least ten or 15 minutes (and some bread experts say up to 45 minutes!), and with some vigor. If you have a stand mixer you should turn up the speed and mix for at least eight minutes. I know a lot of people don't like this advice and believe it will result in dense crumb and tough, chewy crust but I've found the complete opposite. And believe me, I've tried many different techniques. Here is a link to my blog post using this technique (high-speed mixing for 18 minutes) to make a high-hydration 50% whole wheat Genzano bread. It resulted in soft, 'spready' dough that was nevertheless easy to shape because of the very strong stretchy gluten development. And the bread is fantastic - soft, moist and with a tender crispy crust.

seh's picture
seh

Thank you for the suggestion. You are right about me missing that step. My mixing only lasted about two minutes, and most of that time was me staring at what used to be my hand, now conjoined to the dough in five pasty tendrils, trying to figure out how to use the dough scraper to as an amputation instrument.

The Tartine Bread recipe has us mixing in two stages: first with just the levain, water, and flour, after which we let the meteorite rest for 25-40 minutes, followed by a second mixing with salt and more water. Which of these two mixing phases should I prolong?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

... of many peoples' experience with high-hydration, low-handling dough. :)

The first stage is okay to mix to the 'shaggy mass' stage. It's just to get the flour and water all mixed up together so things can start to happen (chemical and physical). The part where you experiment with different amounts and types of mixing comes after adding the salt.

seh's picture
seh

Switching subjects temporarily, do you have any tips for managing this "shaggy mass?" If I mix with my fingers, it all sticks to said fingers, and it's challenging to get the dough off without insignificant loss. Do you use a utensil instead?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

I usually do the mixing in a stand mixer, but that's because I make more than one loaf at a time and have small, arthritic hands. When I do it by hand, I wear a vinyl glove (sensitive to bread flour) and stand beside the sink, constantly wetting my hand (the glove) under the tap as I mix. That makes it stick less and also makes it easier to scrape off the excess without amputating any fingers. :)

seh's picture
seh

When you do that intervening wetting of your hands, I expect that adds water to the dough that's not called for in the recipe. Do you hold back on the initial amount of water in anticipation of introducing more from this tap water during mixing?

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

No, I don't worry too much about the fraction of a percent difference in hydration from the few grams of water on my hands. If you like, you could hold back a bit of the water from the recipe but really it's not going to be much more than 10 grams on your hands, I bet.

bikeprof's picture
bikeprof

with the salt and extra water...

The popularization of both the no-knead breads along with Chad's style of folding by hand in the mixing bowl (not to mention Calvel's work showing the down sides of intensive mixing) has given a bad name to working dough much (often overinterpretted IMO).  But development has to occur somehow or you just won't get the strength...that can come to a large extent with time (as in overnight no-knead approaches) and/or mixing, along with acidity (salt helps too).

You can extend the bulk fermentation and/or your autolyse to have time do more of the work, passively developing the dough, or you can mix it more.  People make great bread both ways.

One of the more surprising things from my experiences in classes at SFBI, was how consistently we mixed the dough well...basically following Calvel's improved mix guidelines.  While I have mostly adopting that strategy to good effect, a long slowly fermented hand mixed dough (without a that much sweat put into it at all) with effective folds works great for me as well, as long as I give it enough time during the bulk fermentation.

seh's picture
seh

Thank you for the advice. I watched Trevor J. Wilson's "How to Mix Wet Dough (Rubaud Method)" video several times now, and like the looks and results of his technique. Do you think that would work here, but perhaps putting the levain in at the start like the Tartine Bread recipe advises?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

It is what Chad does too if you watch his videos.

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

From the video: "This mimics the movement of a diving arm mixer."

LOL.  A diving arm mixer mimics hand mixing.  I was entertained.

dough dog's picture
dough dog

After facing this problem several times myself, I agree with bikeprof ...strength must be developed at some point.

In Calvel's "Improved Mix" the dough is THOROUGHLY MIXED, and actually worked somewhat, as well. This video helped me to understand what to do and what to look for:

http://videos.sorensonmedia.com/San+Francisco+Baking+Institute/2.2+Improved+Mix/d1c2ea00598aa14044K9356Lcfc25ae48592

phaz's picture
phaz

That's the method I use, but, I do it a lot longer, a lot longer. I just keep going, 20+ minutes at a time with a 20 minute rest in between till the dough is ready. As you get further into it, and the gluten developes, the dough becomes less and less sticky. That's a sign you're getting there. Developing the gluten by hand takes time, and it's almost impossible to over knead it, so keep going.

seh's picture
seh

As you can see here, the loaves I cooked today didn't rise. I take it that's the lack of "oven spring." What's the most likely cause of that problem?

Failed sesame loaves

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

People can say what they want, but at only 75% the dough should be well strong enough after 4 hours.  Your bread looks and sounds under proofed to me.  It sounds like your starter is not active enough.  It should look something like this, but not upside down.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"My starter is about three weeks old now. I feed it every day (retain about 25%, replace with equal warm water and 50/50 white and whole wheat bread flour) and keep its volume between 90 and 120 g, but while it gets bubbly, fluffy, and develops "strands" when I stir it with it a spoon, it never rises and falls in the proportions I've read about here. Estimating, it probably rises about 15%. I don't know if that's indicative of a problem."

I would say, yes, only 15% rise is not enough.  

Try this with some of the starter...  when you want to feed and the starter seems peaked, take the discard (about 75%) and put into a fresh clean jar, level out, mark it and carefully cover with perhaps a half inch of water.  Cover and stand in a warm spot (75°F to 77°F) for the next few days.  Just watch it and the water.  When the gas in the culture is strong enough to percolate up and stir the water making it very cloudy, pour off the water and thicken it by adding enough flour to make a soft dough.  It may take a few days so be patient.  :)  It should smell strong yeasty before feeding.  Water can discolour somewhat.  

seh's picture
seh

I set up this experiment on Sunday afternoon and am keeping an eye on it.

Something else remarkable happened yesterday too. After having fed my starter twice per day three times in a row, and having kept it in a warmer place in the house, I found that its volume doubled over the course of 12 hours. Instead of retaining only about 25% of it at each feeding, I increased that to 1/3, keeping 40g and adding 40g of flour with 40g of water. Since then, the starter is doubling.

I also read this essay about making a reliable starter using dark rye flour instead of the white/whole wheat mix as prescribed in the Tartine Bread book. I intend to try that too in parallel.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

amazing what a little heat can do when setting up a new starter.  The next thing you might want to try is increasing the food or decreasing the amount of initial starter to feed.   Generally feeding it equal weights of food (flour) doubles the volume,  twice the amount of food, triples it, and so forth.   Once the starter is doubling under 12 hours, increase the food amount and let it peak, wait an hour or so and then feed.  You may notice that with the feeds, the culture is increasing not only it's strength but it will reach peak sooner.  

Try not to feed the starter when the heat in the house or warm spot drops off for the night.  

Q: Is there still water on top of the sitting culture experiment or did the culture under it "absorb" all the water?

seh's picture
seh

I realized tonight that I had not responded to your question about the experiment.

After five days, the water was still sitting on top of the starter. It had become murky, but I didn't see bubbles rising. I finally opened the jar, poured the water off, and mixed the wet starter in with the rest of my starter.

A couple of days later, I tried again to make another sourdough loaf. My starter was looking healthy, my levain floated that morning, and I tried doing both 15 minutes worth of Trevor Wilson-style mixing after the autolyse and letting the bulk fermentation go to six hours. The dough felt better all the way through pre-shaping, but then it turned for the worse again when I tried the final shaping.

Once again it seemed to go slack, and was wet and very sticky. My attempted folds weren't doing much but tearing the bottom of the dough repeatedly, and the dough wouldn't hold its shape at all. Several hours later, when I tried to get the boule out of my lined banetton into the combo cooker, the top stuck, so my would-be boule was a bunch of globs hanging from the wet, inverted liner. I had to scramble to break as much of it as I could free. What wound up in the pan was about 90% of the dough, but it had no structure or shape at all.

Needless to say, it didn't rise. I wound up with a disc even flatter than my previous two loaves. It tastes quite good; we're both eating it and laughing at it.

The next morning I threw away all my starter, and started over with dark rye flour. Since then, it's been rising to 2-3 times the just-fed height, twice per day. I'm intending to try baking with it on Saturday morning.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

is over proofing during the bulk time...  falling apart.  This could be many things but most common is a weak flour that can't take the sd stress or the fermentation is too long.  Sourdough tends to get more relaxed and "wetter" as time goes on.  The trick is to know when to stop and bake it before it turns into a puddle.  If you have some exact times and temperatures, we might nail it down.  

Another thought is to make a simple dough gauge using a small sample of the dough you're rising. You will want to pack the dough into a tall narrow glass that is easy to label (level, double)  observe keeping it near to the main dough so temps stay the same.  

When you are folding the dough, you can see the unfolded dough rise in the gauge.  The gauge should be just under double when you do the final shaping and then shape the dough in the gauge as well.  Don't let the gauge dough double. About 3/4 to the "double" is about right.   Bake the proofed loaf while the dough still has the ability to trap gas.   

So how old is the new rye starter?  

seh's picture
seh

I wish I would have read your message on Friday evening as I was finishing the bulk fermentation stage of another dough batch, and confronting the dreaded pre-shaping and shaping operations. I was concerned that four hours was too short for a bulk fermentation stage, but I didn't want to stay up any later waiting to face the wet pancake on my countertop for shaping, so I went for it at the four-hour mark.

By then, once again, the dough was wet and sticky, and only barely held any shape during my first and—20 minutes later—second attempt at pre-shaping. When I finally made it to the shaping stage, I floured my countertop and my hands. That helped somewhat, but once again the dough stuck to the countertop when I got to that last stretch-fold-roll-over step. I had to dig the bench knife under it and tear apart what was supposed to be the taut top of the boule. I'm not even sure which side wound up facing up and down when I dropped it into the lined banetton.

But a couple of things went better. I floured the banetton liner much more heavily this time. After 11 hours in the refrigerator, the boule came out into the pan without sticking at all. I gave it a long, spiral slash, and, as you can see in the photos, it rose partway.

Partially risen loaf

Partially risen loaf

I do recall that perhaps at around hour three of the bulk fermentation stage, the dough seemed to stick less to the sides of the plastic container in which I was folding it. I thought that it should be improving with more time. It did not occur to me that I could have already past the ideal point, as you suggest. Your proposed dough gauge sounds like it would indeed help to figure this out.

As I described last week, despite having spent countless hours watching dough shaping videos, I am still convinced that what I'm working with here is not like the dough I see in the videos. I can't see how to pull it taut; it's too sticky, it tears too easily, and it's too "heavy." It just slumps down again if I'm not cupping it in my hand. I spent about ten minutes doing Trevor Wilson-style mixing this time, and less time during bulk fermentation, but I still consider the dough to be unmanageable during pre-shaping. Perhaps an expert could save it.

I'll attach here a couple of photos from last week. First is the dough on my countertop, after my first attempt at pre-shaping it. You can see the specular reflections, indicating that it's moist. It has nothing like a "skin." The second photo is the baked "loaf," which was what was I was able to detach from the banetton liner and drop into the pan.

Dough after first pre-shaping attempt

Unrisen loaf

I think the next things to try changing are my white bread flour (bought from the bulk section of a local food coop), a shorter bulk fermentation stage, and pulling back on the hydration percentage by a few points.

My newer all-rye starter is eight days old today. On Friday when I prepared my dough it was six days old. The levain didn't float after nine hours, but it was all puffed up and bubbly. I checked my starter at the 12-hour mark just before feeding time, and it doesn't float either, even though it's swelled to about 2.5 times its original height.

Does my description of the dough sound like I'm still not dealing with the right substance? Again, I can't see how to wind up with a semi-dry, taut skin when working with this stuff.

I appreciate your suggestions. I might have given up already were it not for these encouraging hints.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

oranges to apples...  yeasted dough to sourdough, for free form loaves, I tend to blend my sour doughs less hydrated than my yeasted doughs because of the extra degradation from bacterial fermentation.  You might want to alternate a yeasted dough into your schedule to boost confidence and make comparisons.  Use the same sourdough recipe just divide the flour and water from the starter build and use 1% or less instant yeast.  Timing will be different but dough feel should be the learning exercise.  

Quite a few newbies get themselves swamped with too much water in the dough and the frustration can take the fun out of dough handling.  The challenge becomes too overwhelming.  I would support your suggestion of a much lower hydration and work up your personal parameters as your skills develop.  ...and use a simple dough gauge. 

Sounds like the rye starter is ready to go to work.  

During folds, are you keeping track of the top or stretched side of the loaf? Try flipping the loaf upside down first before folding and then returning/flipping the dough top side up while it rises.  It's not so important in the first few folds but as you get closer to final shaping, it may make a difference.  

To really observe a sourdough, keep the dough on the counter top after the first few folds, and then during the entire fermenting process.  Cover with a glass bowl to observe.  When the dough starts rising more out than up,  time to (dust) flip and give it another fold set to bring the shape back. When the rising gaps between folding and shaping threaten to get near 35 minutes, time to final shape let rise half an hour or so in the banneton.    Let the dough teach you when it is ready.

I tend to think of sourdoughs as having one continuous rise with a lot of interruptions to fold and reshape the loaf until it is ready to bake.  Seldom (except for retarding)  do I let sourdough lie in a bowl or banneton very long.  The gaps between handling get shorter as time progresses.  

Most yeasted doughs have a clearer pattern of doubling bulk rise ev. followed by final proofing rise.  Often of equal length.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
seh's picture
seh

Yesterday I baked another loaf. Here's what I did differently from last time:

  • Use King Arthur Bread Flour instead of the no-name bulk flour I've been using
  • Reduce hydration percentage from 75% to 72%
  • Mix the dough after a 45-minute autolyse for about five minutes, rather than fifteen after an hour-long autolyse
  • Put some dough into a shot glass as a dough gauge
  • Use a stainless steel mixing bowl for bulk fermentation phase rather than a square plastic storage container
  • During bulk fermentation, when stretching and folding, put the "top" down, do four folds joined at the "bottom," then flip it back over and tuck the sides, developing some tension across the top of the dough
  • Let the bulk fermentation go for four hours, though I probably could have stopped at least a half hour earlier
  • Use more flour on the work surface during the final shaping

It was a warmer day, so the heat wasn't coming on in the house, which meant that my usual means of pushing fermentation wasn't available. Still, the levain floated, and the dough came together much more nicely when mixing in the salt and remaining water after autolyse. I could tell right then I was going to have an easier time.

I used my bulk fermentation time as a kind of preliminary pre-shaping opportunity, building up a tightened ball of dough, rather than the undifferentiated mass I had been maintaining in the plastic container when trying to follow the Tartine Bread instructions.

When I took the dough out of the mixing bowl for pre-shaping, it was more slack than I thought it would be. I didn't get it to stand up in a ball, but I was at least able to tuck the edges under and wiggle it around enough to develop some tension across the top surface.

After a 30-minute bench rest, the dough felt much better for final shaping. It was starting to resist being stretched too much, and it was easy to fold it into a compact ball (admittedly, more like a rounded rectangle). I floured the countertop and my hands, and was careful to avoid tearing the dough when it stuck to the counter.

For final proofing, I put my banetton in the still-warm oven, and the dough finally rose detectably. Unfortunately, though I probably could have baked it after only about 2.5 hours of proofing, I had to leave for a party, so I put the banetton in the refrigerator until I could return to it about three hours later. At that point, the bottom (exposed) surface was starting to develop a firm skin.

I had some trouble with the lame and didn't wind up scoring the top as deeply as intended. The photos show what looks like some missed potential in expanding further.

Note that the dough that I set aside in the dough gauge never rose after the first half hour. I kept checking it, but eventually gave up on it when it time for pre-shaping, at which point I integrated the set-aside dough back into the main loaf.

The crumb is more open than any of my previous loaves. I'm not sure how close this comes to the ideal hole size and distribution.

Here are a few photos of the result:

Exterior of loaf 1

Exterior of loaf 2

Interior of loaf

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

That is how the dough is supposed to look.  As long as your starter was active enough.  Trust me when I say that the number 1 problem SD rookies have is using an immature starter.  The number 2 problem is ineptitude in dough handling.  The former takes time and the latter takes practice.  I am here to tell you that if number 1 is not a problem (it definitely was, but it seems like you figured it out now), then it's your shaping.  The dough looks right.

MichaelLily's picture
MichaelLily

Wheat starters float because the gliadin and glutenin spindle together to create gluten structures, which trap gas.  Rye has very little gluten and will not trap gas, so it will never float (barring a fluke), even when sufficiently fermented.

seh's picture
seh

Ah, I didn't know that different flours would float differently.

What I didn't say in my post today is that my levain that I made yesterday was made from the following:

  • 20g all-rye starter
  • 10g rye flour
  • 30g whole wheat flour
  • 40g water

Perhaps it was that 30% whole wheat flour that allowed it to float.

(By the way, I just realized that despite having intended to make 120g of levain, I only made 100g. That explains why I wound up with only about 95g that I could get out of my bowl.)

Arjon's picture
Arjon

I know from my own experience that it's tempting / easy to think baking bread is just a matter of following a recipe, no matter how complex it is. Maybe it is for those with a lot of natural aptitude, but I wasn't one, so after a few attempts at trying to run before I had walked, what worked out A LOT better for me was learning to bake like the beginner I was; i.e. step by step starting with a beginner-level loaf / recipe.

For me, this meant baking a basic Lahey all-white no-knead loaf until the results were consistent (which only took a few loaves) before trying different flour blends, then higher hydrations, then SD. What this process did was make it easy to see, feel and learn how different flours affect the dough, the different hydrations, then SD instead of natural yeast. It also allowed me to learn gradually; e.g. I was able to handle 75% hydration pretty well right away because I had already worked up to it through a series of increased hydrations.

seh's picture
seh

I appreciate the advice. Nowhere in the Tartine Bread book does it say, "Hold on there, rookie, the beginner books are that-a-way." It makes it sound like a fairly foolproof way to make what looks like good bread. It's the only book about bread that I've ever read.

I don't mean to insult people who are good at this already and have been doing it for a long time. I like learning things that are not easy; I just didn't realize that this was going to be one of those things.

It sounds like I have some more reading to do. I take it it's Jim Lahey's My Bread: The Revolutionary No-Work, No-Knead Method that you're recommending here. Off to the library...

Lazy Loafer's picture
Lazy Loafer

Next time you're at the library see if they have Peter Reinhart's "Artisan Breads Every Day" as well. Another good starter book.