The Fresh Loaf

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Old or new? Or does it matter?

enchant's picture
enchant

Old or new? Or does it matter?

I've been caring for my 2-month-old starter for, let's see... I guess 2 months now.  During that time, I've been struggling to figure out how it all works with the help of you good and patient people.  I'm putting it to some good use today, taking my first shot at the Tartine country loaf.

Last night before I went to bed, I took 50g of my starter, put it into a new jar and added 100g water and 100g flour mix.  This morning, this new leaven was very active and happy.  When I added it to the water for today's loaf, I could have stood on it and it would still float.  So I'm optimistic about this loaf.

But then I had a quandary. I had my jar of original starter, and I had the new jar with the leftover leaven.  My question is this...  One has to be thrown away while I keep the other.  Does it make any difference whatsoever which I keep?  Is either better than the other in any way?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Build extra levain and keep the leftover for the next batch and so on. Others keep a mother starter and take from that to build a levain. If you keep a mother starter then there's no need to build extra. Build up to the correct amount that goes into the recipe keeping the same ratio advised in the recipe. Or 5-10g extra allowing for fermentation.

Leftover levain can be put into the fridge and used within a few days for another bread before it needs refreshing. Or you can use it in waffles, pancakes etc.

Tartine is very high hydration and it might be a good idea to lessen the amount of water for now. Try 65-70% hydration and keep the rest to one side and add it if necessary.

enchant's picture
enchant

I'm already on my third stretch 'n' fold, so I can't alter the hydration at this point.  But we'll see how it turns out.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Best of luck.

enchant's picture
enchant

I think it's working out.  I'm copying the method used on Knormie's youtube video.  His seems to be stretching a tad easier than mine, but that could be because I'm only making a single loaf (only one cooker), so I only have half as much dough to pull.

enchant's picture
enchant

I think you're right about the hydration.  I normally don't use a linen cloth in my baskets, but that's what was in the video, so that's what I did.  When I dumped it into the cooker, the dough hung fast to the linen.  It was a real pain to extract it.  It hadn't proofed all that much, and it's a pretty short loaf.  Dryer next time.

enchant's picture
enchant

Hey, I got that nice open crumb that's all the rage.  A rousing success!

(Sigh...  Maybe try again tomorrow.)

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

An immature Levain. Could also be a proofing issue. Never mind. Turn it into bread pudding or something. Persevere because it's very rewarding when it works. Can I suggest Hamelman's Vermont as a great starting point. I think twice about the Tartine at the recommended hydration myself. 

P.s. I like your sense of humour :) Difficult to find one when a bread fails. I know for myself.

enchant's picture
enchant

I'm currently planning to give it another go tomorrow with the lower hydration.  As hideous as it was, I did like the flavor.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

With the leftover Levain do another build and make sure it's mature before using. Best leave it a bit longer if not sure. Should have peaked and have a nice but strong smell. Smell of a Levain is a indicator that people don't regularly rely on. If it smells nice and alcoholic it makes for a good and tasty loaf, I think.

Go for 65% hydration, keep an extra 5% to one side and add it in necessary. Make sure that the dough is billowy and aereated during the bulk ferment stage before proceeding onto shaping and final proofing. 

I look forward to results. 

enchant's picture
enchant

By the age of the levain, are you referring to how long it's been since I gave it that final feeding?  I believe that today's was 8 hours.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And how much do you need for the recipe? What is the Levain build guideline in the recipe? 

enchant's picture
enchant

The original recipe was for 2 loaves and wanted 200g.  So I go with 100g.  Currently, I've got about 200 in the jar.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I'd normally say refrigerate and use when ready as long as it's within a few days. However signs indicate it was an immature Levain. Don't want to risk that. 

Make pancakes and/or waffles with that. Or even put it into yeasted breads for taste. 

You want 100g Levain at 100% hydration 50:50 whole wheat and bread flour. 

Take 10g of your starter and feed it 50g warm water + 50g flour (25g whole-wheat + 25g bread flour). 

Leave that to mature overnight for 12 hours (ish), use when peaked and smelling ripe. 

Use 100g for the recipe. You've built 110g but you'll lose some through Fermentation and might end up being exactly 100g. 

enchant's picture
enchant

I'll get to work on that right now. 

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

As always watch the starter/dough and not the clock. I don't know how active your starter is and not when it was last fed. So I say 12 hours but check it come morning and keep an eye on it. We can't regulate temperatures and timings like a professional in their environment. Let me know how it goes. 

enchant's picture
enchant

Bear in mind that my experience on this is lean, and my opinion about "how active" my starter is might differ from yours.  I thought it looked active this morning, but perhaps it was only slightly active.  It smelled like fine box of wine.

Here's what the fresh stuff looks like moments after mixing.  I'll try to grab a shot of it in the morning before beginning.

enchant's picture
enchant

The levain had little visible activity and not much smell.  I'm going to try this again tomorrow.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Did it rise and fall, during the night, or does it need more time? What's the temperature and has the starter got a consistency of a sponge?

@ a feeding of 1:5:5 and 12 hours it should be good and ready. Perhaps this was the route of the problem. Question is, is how mature is your mother starter?

enchant's picture
enchant

I created the started on Dec 1.  I have no idea what it did through the night as I was asleep.  I was thinking of trying the test again during the day today with a slightly lower feed ratio, like 1:3:3 and see how that works.  I'll also leave last night's starter on the counter and see if it changes any.  The temperature in the kitchen is around 70 during the day and low 60's at night.  I have a proofing box I made and can keep the temperature in the upper 70's if that would work.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

when building the levain allows you to see if it has risen if there are bits of starter clinging to the sides. Sometimes one would have to look for clues. If bubbles are breaking the surface then that is a good sign.

By all means do a 1:3:3 ratio and keeping it in the mid - upper 70's would benefit greatly.

Keep this one warm and see if it comes to life.

enchant's picture
enchant

I put both yesterday's levain and the one I created this morning into the proofing box.  I have it set to be about 75F.  Out of curiosity, I just took a peek in (4 hours since this morning's creation).  The new levain is quiet (not surprising), but the one I created last night is actually looking pretty good. Nice pungent smell and bubbles on the top.  I think I might try starting a loaf now.  Scheduling may be tricky toward the end.  There's a chance I might have to be out right about the time I have to bake, but what will I waste?  Fifty cents worth of flour?  And I understand that I can proof for a long time in the fridge, but that's a whole 'nuther concept to get used to, and I'm trying to make small changes.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I think that your original problem was not timing the levain well. Sounds as if this one has peaked and fully matured. If you can complete the bulk ferment and shape before you go out then pop the shaped dough into the fridge. You can either take it out when you get home to finish off (depending on how long you're out for) or bake straight from the fridge 8-12 hours later (tomorrow morning). Best of luck.

Or... once the bulk ferment is done pop the bowl into the fridge. When you get home shape the dough into your prepared banneton and final proof at room temperature.

There are a few options. Choose what's best for you.

enchant's picture
enchant

My tentative scheduling conflict is in the evening.  I fear I might have to leave just before or during the bake.  So if anything, I might put it in to proof overnight and bake in the morning.  But everything is up in the air, atm.  I'll keep you updated.  And as always... Thanks for all the good advice.

enchant's picture
enchant

I have to run out now and when I get back, I might not be in the proper condition to handle cutlery, so I might wait till morning to open this.  It's driving me crazy though.  I feel like a kid on Christmas eve, and under the tree is a wrapped gift shaped like a bicycle.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

You've got some good oven spring there. The scoring has opened up very nicely. Kept it's shape and a nice colour. Looking forward to the taste report. Leaving it to cool completely is good anyway, if you can resist the urge to cut into it. Amazing feeling when it works.

enchant's picture
enchant

Well, big disappointment when I cut into it last night (couldn't wait till morning), but while lying in bed, I went over the process repeatedly and realized my massive screwup.  When I initially transcribed what I saw in the video onto notes to tape to my cupboard door, I totally spaced on one step.  After the bulk ferment, he reshapes the dough and bench rests it (I was good up to that point), then he flips it and does one final stretch and fold (oops) before placing it into the proofing basket.  I'm sure that this missing step is what caused my problem on this loaf and the last.

Now to focus on the positive stuff.  That oven spring - wow.  That's the best I've managed on any loaf I've baked.  A few things probably contributed to that.  I spritzed the dough with water just before covering it and putting it into the oven. Also, the slightly lower hydration (I wound up going with 70%) made it easier to score deeply.

I feel slightly more proficient in some of the steps - less clumsy.  Manipulating the dough with the bench scraper and reshaping - that all went more smoothly.  Stretch 'n' folds went better.  At first I tried to copy what he did in the video.  He'd grab a big hunk of dough and stretch it out.  Thing is, I was only making one loaf (he made 2), and when I grabbed the same amount of dough, I was grabbing a much larger percentage of what I had.  Yesterday, I stretched out smaller amounts and it worked better.  Using the proofing basket without the linen also worked better.  It was still a bit of a challenge to get the dough to come out, but I can work on that.

I'm hoping to give this another shot tomorrow.  Lechem, thanks again for the help on this.  Your assistance is making a lot of difference.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

From your explanation and that photo I can tell you the ONLY issue was shaping. That's it. Everything else went absolutely fine.

This is a huge improvement from the previous one which we're putting down to an immature levain.

Yes, a pre-shape is important. And try knocking out the big air bubbles all the while keeping the small ones.

Enjoy the loaf.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Trevor J Wilson, a fellow TFL'er, has a website with videos. Watch his videos for some great lessons and techniques on handling the dough at each stage. Many of his recipes are high hydration but you can drop the hydration to suit your needs but he also shows you how to handle high hydration dough.

http://www.breadwerx.com/ 

 

enchant's picture
enchant

I'll check it out.

enchant's picture
enchant

I made another loaf yesterday.  It wouldn't be *my* loaf unless I screwed something up.  In this case, I didn't flour the dough sufficiently before putting it into the proofing basket, and it was such a struggle getting it out that I lost a lot of what I gained during proofing.  Nonetheless, I got decent oven spring and it came out pretty good.  The holes were smaller than the previous loaves, but still larger than I'd like, but looking at other photos of Tartine loaves, this is pretty common.  So maybe that's what it's supposed to look like.  Going forward, I think I'll drop the hydration to 65%.  Regardless, it tastes wonderful.  I'm going to make some beef stew as a side dish for my bread.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Rice flour and bread flour (or AP flour) is very good for not sticking. I know the feeling, we've all been there, when everything goes so well till it comes to taking it out of the banneton. Next time this happens (hope it doesn't) instead of shaking and banging it just leave it and allow gravity to do the work. Very high hydration dough can be a pain. I prefer to do low hydration and get it out of the banneton then ruin something.

Enjoy the loaf. Beef Stew is the side dish! to the loaf. I like that.