The annoying problem with my tartine bread !
This is my first post and I felt it necessary to write because I couldn't really find an answer elsewhere so I am begging those of you who are more knowledgeable than I for some help because I cannot bear to make another failure of a loaf. Namely, a flat pancake with some big holes (which i attribute to the stretch and folds incorporating air), but otherwise dense and embarrassing.
Ive been dabbling with sourdough for a few years now and have a lovely starter which has been very stable and resilient, its about 4 years old (100% hydration, white flour, refreshed once a day).
So: I have made the infamous Tartine (book 1) bread - for those of you who do not know it the bakers percentages are as follows:
75% hydration, 20% leaven, 90% white flour, 10% whole wheat, 2% salt.
4 hours bulk fermentation (with stretch and folds in 30 min intervals for first 2 hours then 45 minutes for last 2 hours), pre-shape, bench rest, shape and 4 hours proofing before baking in La Cloche.
I feel rather confident in the hydration level, especially helpful with the stretch and folds. The gluten appears to be well developed, which is evident in my pre-shape which yields a nice tight bun but but seem to be failing at the final shaping - too much sticking, ripping the gluten membrane.
Its strange that my first 2 attempts gave me a wonderful loaf with a high oven spring (i am using a La Cloche) and my next 3 attempts were appalling. Since the first loaf my technique has improved and I have watched many videos to try to hone in my technique and improve.
The only difference between the first successful loaf and the last failed loaf is:
- The room temperature has decreased somewhat from about 70F to 65F (roughly). My leaven did not pass the float test but it was active both times. The final loaf proofed for 4 hours but with the poke test I didn't really feel like it was proofed enough I was simply scared of over proofing.
- I tried the stitching method I saw employed by some including Chad Robinson and this ripped my membrane. I did not press down much or degas however.
So my question is - is this a matter of UNDERPROOFING (i don't think it over proofed) or OVERHANDING in the final shaping which I understand can ruin the gluten development. However I see in the final loaf that the gluten seems to be developed - correct me if I'm wrong but there are "strings" in the crumb consistent with developed gluten.
Im also wondering about the large irregular holes. Im confused.
THANK YOU
A drop in temperature, didn't pass the float test and big gaping holes all point to an immature levain.
So would you say to wait longer with the levain and then continue on with the same cold temps and timing ?
use warm water for both the levain build and dough. Try to find a warm spot for the both as well.
As for the "timing", I would watch the levain and dough rather than the clock. Adjust the recipe temperature and increase the timings if the dough needs it. And vice versa in the summer if it gets really warm.
Wait for the levain and dough to look and feel ready rather than just relying on the time. The leavin should be bubbly, risen and pass the float test. The dough should be aerated, billowy and have extensibility.
Thank you - I will try again with a more mature starter and update
As a side note even if the leaven is not completely ready shouldn't it continue to develop in the dough and therefore it shouldn't make too much of a difference if it passed the float test or not?
and just this past weekend had some hands on experience when I had autolysed the flour and water, left no spare time and starter seemed unready. I pushed ahead but watched the dough and not the clock. Turned out to be a nice loaf.
So ideally you wish for a nice and bubbly strong levain. This will help to ensure a good loaf. If you adjust your method and timings, should the levain build be off, then as long as the starter with which you build your levain was healthy then it should work, even if the reults will be different.
Here's the way I see it... Provided your starter has recently been refreshed and you have enough then you can actually use it from the fridge (again, timings will be different to the recipe). If it's gone a few days since the last feed (or you don't have enough) then you give it a refreshment before using (this can be in the form of a levain build). It makes sure it's strong and healthy. The longer since the last feed the more important is a refreshment.
Now say your starter is healthy and you wish to build 100g levain. So you take 20g starter and feed it 40g water + 40g flour. I see no reason why if it's capable of maturing what it is fed (the levain build) then it should also be capable of raising a dough if given enough time. We build to make more starter and to ensure it is healthy in the first place.
But say you jump the gun and use too early. Wouldn't this be like using 20g starter instead of 100g starter in the final dough? Or perhaps more because it has matured somewhat.
Well if that 20g was healthy and you give it enough time (watch the dough and not the clock) then no reason why you can't get a decent loaf out of it.
You will be playing more with dice as your levain hasn't proved itself but it can be done.
This is my novice way of thinking and perhaps someone who is more expert can confirm this.
I've been wondering some of these same myself as things are moving a little slower these days with the drop in temperatures around here. I haven't experimented yet with using a less than float test-ready levain, but I would surmise that that, and your lower ambient temperature, would probably stretch your bulk out longer than you've been used to. Recently I've been bulk proofing in my oven with the pilot light turned on as that's the most temperature stable place in our house right now, and it helps keep bulk somewhat on a schedule for me.
Lechem summed up the signs that bulk has gone long enough very well. I also look for some doming where the dough meets the container, which shows strength, and visible signs of aeration on the bottom and sides of the container (I use a transparent one).
Another idea on how to tell if the bulk ferment is done is always welcome. I'm continuously learning and every so often I have a light bulb moment.
Thank you Rushyama
Thanks!
1. In microwave with door slightly ajar so light is on.
2. On top of the refrigerator. The coils in the back create a warm updraft. If you have a cabinet there, make it a proofing cabinet!
If you have a few bucks, this is a great product. It was developed by posters on Fresh Loaf and tested by posters on Fresh Loaf. Can be bought on Amazon,even. It really works well for my cold northern kitchen.
http://brodandtaylor.com/folding-proofer-and-slow-cooker/
on this site. I don't have enough room but after reading about it on TFL I stuck my hand there to test it out. Would never have thought so but it's surprisingly warm.
One day I wish to invest in a proofer where I can regulate the temperature.
I've come across this proofer on my searches and never knew it was developed and tested by TFL'ers. Nice! :)
I live in the northeastern US, where homes have central heat. I find that placing the dough or proofing loaves near the central heating unit keeps my dough around 70°F.
This is all great advice! The other day I was preparing to bake and made a leaven and left overnight. I did the drop test when I was ready to start making the dough and was disappointed that the leaven dropped a bit in the water. I decided to go ahead anyway to see what would happen. I let the flour and water plus leaven autolyse for approximately 4 hours, did a slightly longer bulk fermentation with 4 sets of folds every 30 minutes and 2 sets of folds every hour. After shaping, bench rest, and then folding and placing in banneton I let it do a slow proofing in the refrigerator and left overnight. I then baked the next morning and it turned out to be one of the best loaves I've made (I'd insert an image but don't know how to do that in a comment!)
Lechem is right...which again points to the need to watch the dough and be flexible...which in turn points up the importance of what rushyama says, as examples of the kinds of tools/indicators of the maturation of your dough: volume and shape. I also end up judging my doughs by how they 'jiggle' when I give the container a little shake (but as with everything, the type of dough, its hydration, and whether it was refrigerated or not, will effect how jiggly it will be at different stages of development).
One of the keys to move from occasionally hitting a home run to doing it consistently, is developing those tools and your ability to judge. Practice is a huge piece of that, but your habits of observation, note taking, understanding causes and effects, and developing a systematic process are also important.
To get back to the pictured loaf...it looks quite underdeveloped...so a longer bulk (and perhaps a longer proof too)
I'm not sure I'd agree that your levain was too weak. There are a lot of holes in the finished loaf; it's the structure around the holes that's a bit lacking! This says to me that the gluten development was insufficient.
Two ways to fix this - one, work the dough for longer after the autolyse stage and before the bulk ferment with stretch & folds. Mix it in a stand mixer for maybe six minutes, or do a fairly vigorous hand mixing (slap & fold, pincer, Trevor Wilson's method from Breadwerx, whatever works for you) until the dough is very strong, silky and stretchy. With mostly white flour and a fairly high hydration this dough should be able to get to this stage. Second, let it bulk ferment for longer, until it is very pillowy and domed. You can leave it out for four or five hours then put it in the fridge overnight if that works for your schedule. Pre-shape then shape & proof for a shorter time. If you pre-shape with a little more vigor as well, that will re-distribute the gases. Press the dough down gently and either fold all the edges in to form a ball, or do a letter fold (three times in one direction, then three times in the other if the dough is stretchy enough).
I would say that the dough was under proofed and would need more time to be proofed. Maybe the bulk fermentation phase was too short at that temperature and therefore you need to extend final proof. I learned to watch the dough and not the clock and that is most important. Signs that BF is at the end would be doming at edge, some nice big bubbles that may appear, traces of last S&F still visible after 30 minutes, dough feels more cohesive, does not stick so much to the walls of the vessel, dough is aerated, alive and when you do a S&F you can feel between your fingers that it is aerated, soft. I just added a picture of those signs. The dough on the picture is very wet.
Sometimes I want to be too clever and continue for an hour after I have already observed the above described signs and I am always punished because that bake is not a good one and usually I end up with slightly over proofed dough, especially if I don't check the dough after few hours while its retarded in the fridge.
At the beginning I was not able to recognize those signs and I simply let the dough rise for one hour or one hour and half without stretches and I got at least 50% rise, Then I was sure that I have to move to next phase.
Young or mature levain - it is not really so important if you watch the signs of the dough. With young levain it will take more time to the end of BF. It will eventually come there. But if you just look the clock, that is a problem. You can make a dough just with 2% of starter, but it will take 12 or 16 hours to complete BF. Young starter just means that you will end up with more dense structure while well matured starter will give you more open structure. That's my experience.
Since a while I don't use float test any more. I can use starter (levain) when it starts rising but then I need to extend BF in terms of time until I see the above described signs. When using mature starter (let us say at its peek time) dough simply needs less time to show the signs that BF should be interrupted and I should divide the dough, shape it and retard it or just continue with proofing and bake it when it's ready.
I must say that just S&F is for the flour I am using not enough. I would qualify my flour as stronger AP flour. Therefore I am using always Trevor's scoop & stretch method for at least 5 minutes to develop the gluten. I must say that since I am using this approach my breads are much better.
But I don't think your dough was undereveloped, but was definitely under proofed. Just look at the dense parts around big holes which would need more proofing. One of the signs for appropriate proofed dough is when you score it you can see nice holes in the dough which you have just cut.
Maybe I am wrong here, but it works for me. However, I must say, that it took about 8 months of experience that I was able to read the signs of the dough. Until then I must admit that there were many failures.
Happy baking,
Joze
As it was an immature starter but timings were kept to the recipe. But as it is with bread baking the signs can point to one or more things wrong. Just a matter of adjusting till it all comes together just right.
Every so often something clicks and I begin to notice things which have passed me by. How the dough should look and more recently feel when that subtle change occurs during the bulk ferment which tells me it's done.
Nice photo, with doodles, and explanation.
Thank you Joze.
thanks for all the wonderful comments hey are really helpful! i will be trying another bake soon and hope to update with a positive result !